Weird Tua Story

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Duck07
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Re: Weird Tua Story

Post by Duck07 »

The only time I struggled to play Devil's Advocate at the UO was when it came to the argument in favor of Spanking. There just isn't a good reason for it and its not an "ends justify the means" matter either.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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Duck07 wrote:The only time I struggled to play Devil's Advocate at the UO was when it came to the argument in favor of Spanking. There just isn't a good reason for it and its not an "ends justify the means" matter either.
Yea, I couldn't disagree with you more. The point of any discipline is to get a kid to learn that their behavior was not acceptable. Kid calls another kid a bad name, they go in the corner. Kid does it again, corner again. Again, take away privileges. Again, take away other privileges. Again? By this point, you've got a kid who doesn't respond to your attempt to psychologically manipulate them (this is what sending a kid to the corner or their room or taking away their things is). Spanking paired with a firm explanation of what they're doing wrong and why it's unacceptable is an option.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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StevensTechU wrote:Yea, I couldn't disagree with you more. The point of any discipline is to get a kid to learn that their behavior was not acceptable. Kid calls another kid a bad name, they go in the corner. Kid does it again, corner again. Again, take away privileges. Again, take away other privileges. Again? By this point, you've got a kid who doesn't respond to your attempt to psychologically manipulate them (this is what sending a kid to the corner or their room or taking away their things is). Spanking paired with a firm explanation of what they're doing wrong and why it's unacceptable is an option.
Spanking/Striking a child does not lead to the desired outcome the way you think it does. They either stop the behavior out of fear of retribution or they find that the punishment is something they can handle and thus continue doing the same thing. Tua likely just learned to accept the pain and move on. Nothing I say will convince you of that but I will repeat that the more I have read about this, the more I found that old belief going away.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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Duck07 wrote:
StevensTechU wrote:Yea, I couldn't disagree with you more. The point of any discipline is to get a kid to learn that their behavior was not acceptable. Kid calls another kid a bad name, they go in the corner. Kid does it again, corner again. Again, take away privileges. Again, take away other privileges. Again? By this point, you've got a kid who doesn't respond to your attempt to psychologically manipulate them (this is what sending a kid to the corner or their room or taking away their things is). Spanking paired with a firm explanation of what they're doing wrong and why it's unacceptable is an option.
Spanking/Striking a child does not lead to the desired outcome the way you think it does. They either stop the behavior out of fear of retribution or they find that the punishment is something they can handle and thus continue doing the same thing. Tua likely just learned to accept the pain and move on. Nothing I say will convince you of that but I will repeat that the more I have read about this, the more I found that old belief going away.
Please show any reliable scientific study supporting what you just said.

"they either stop out of fear of retribution" ... which is the same as psychologically punishing a kid.

"or they find it's something they can handle and continue" ... which is the same as psychologically punishing a kid. You're not really calling out anything negative associated with physical punishment that isn't also the same for psychological punishment, which, back to my point, you leave it all in the toolbox and see what's best for you and your child. Not everybody's the same, and we would be foolish to think all kids will react the same.

"Nothing I say will convince you" ... yes, facts as opposed to conjecture or personal emotional take would. I've read a ton on it, as well, and it's always by someone who has made up their mind before conducting a then-flawed study, or is relying on anecdotal evidence, one way or the other.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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StevensTechU wrote:
Duck07 wrote:
StevensTechU wrote:Yea, I couldn't disagree with you more. The point of any discipline is to get a kid to learn that their behavior was not acceptable. Kid calls another kid a bad name, they go in the corner. Kid does it again, corner again. Again, take away privileges. Again, take away other privileges. Again? By this point, you've got a kid who doesn't respond to your attempt to psychologically manipulate them (this is what sending a kid to the corner or their room or taking away their things is). Spanking paired with a firm explanation of what they're doing wrong and why it's unacceptable is an option.
Spanking/Striking a child does not lead to the desired outcome the way you think it does. They either stop the behavior out of fear of retribution or they find that the punishment is something they can handle and thus continue doing the same thing. Tua likely just learned to accept the pain and move on. Nothing I say will convince you of that but I will repeat that the more I have read about this, the more I found that old belief going away.
Please show any reliable scientific study supporting what you just said.

"they either stop out of fear of retribution" ... which is the same as psychologically punishing a kid.

"or they find it's something they can handle and continue" ... which is the same as psychologically punishing a kid. You're not really calling out anything negative associated with physical punishment that isn't also the same for psychological punishment, which, back to my point, you leave it all in the toolbox and see what's best for you and your child. Not everybody's the same, and we would be foolish to think all kids will react the same.

"Nothing I say will convince you" ... yes, facts as opposed to conjecture or personal emotional take would. I've read a ton on it, as well, and it's always by someone who has made up their mind before conducting a then-flawed study, or is relying on anecdotal evidence, one way or the other.

Paging Dr. Spock.
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And I can be the compass for those that search and seek." ~Lem Absher
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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TualatinDuck wrote: .......
Paging Dr. Spock.
From a UO perspective Dr Rudolf Dreikus > Dr Spock
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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GrandpaDuck wrote:
TualatinDuck wrote: .......
Paging Dr. Spock.
From a UO perspective Dr Rudolf Dreikus > Dr Spock
It is from an OU perspective as well but Spock is more widely known to the laymen.
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And I can be the compass for those that search and seek." ~Lem Absher
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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StevensTechU wrote:I"m too lazy to dive into the details. I have no issue with spanking. Parents are responsible for raising moral and decent kids, and if other avenues don't work with a kid, it's a tool in the tool belt. But for underachieving in athletics, if true, that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard and definitely could be considered abuse.
Agreed. That's pretty psycho as a parent to physically punish someone for not performing in sports at the level you demand.

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Re: Weird Tua Story

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I don't have any children so my position on the topic of spanking can change or be disregarded completely. The policy in my family in regards to spanking is that it should never be the tool used in disciplining a child, and that you are to never do it out of anger. Once a child received a spanking you should explain to them why they received it. I could be wrong though, I don't have kids so it's not something I actively think about.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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FlDuckFan wrote:I don't have any children so my position on the topic of spanking can change or be disregarded completely. The policy in my family in regards to spanking is that it should never be the tool used in disciplining a child, and that you are to never do it out of anger. Once a child received a spanking you should explain to them why they received it. I could be wrong though, I don't have kids so it's not something I actively think about.
Same reason I won't argue with my significant other, I'll walk away and come back with a level head.
"And I can be the warrior for those who are frail and weak,
And I can be the compass for those that search and seek." ~Lem Absher
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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All I will add is the one time my grandfather slapped me (pretty much just hard enough to get my attention), was more effective than all the whippings/spankings I ever received from his son... Leaving blisters or bruises, (or worse) on a child in the pursuit of "attitude adjustment" is frankly stupid, brutal, and morally bankrupt.

Strangely enough, after enduring the physical and mental abuse I experienced as a child (I can remember being kicked as early as the age of 4) I almost never resorted to physical discipline with my own children. A judicious swat on the bottom was not unheard of.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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Interesting quote from Proverbs I found recently: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die."

Lots of strong opinions on this. I usually only listen to people who have actually had children. Others are just speculating. I've seen lots of different approaches, but interestingly, I can usually tell the families that incorporate corporal punishment and those that don't. The former usually have better-behaved and more respectful children. My sense is that the general idea is not to leave marks or do it out of anger, but just as a jolt in order to correct smaller kids. Teenagers can be really difficult, as I am finding in recent years, but spanking seems really out of place. Reasoning or some kind of sanction seems like a better idea. The Tua quote does seem odd in terms of associating physical punishment with sports performance (it might have just been framed oddly because of the interview dynamic), but he clearly loves his family, and I find that to be the most important thing. Everyone screws up, but love covers a multitude of sins.
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Alan
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Re: Weird Tua Story

Post by Alan »

Lots of varied opinions on this and my thoughts are it's due to a wide age group on this board. I also agree, anyone who has never raised children or a child does not have the experience to give their opinion much weight. My mother did all the disciplining and she used a tool to do it, in my case it was the wire end of a fly swatter, in Tua's case it was a belt a very common tool. I have thought about this since yesterday a bit and tried to recall if my spankings caused me physical pain, I cannot remember ever being in pain after a spanking. Did I cry? Hell yes! But I think it was because my mother was upset with me and disciplined me, she nurtured and gave me comfort.... it was a bond between a loving mother and her child that was interrupted that hurt and caused emotion. Woundedknee was abused from what I read, there is no excuse for a father to kick a child , his father reacted out of anger. 07 used the word "pain" when referring to spanking a child, I was never in pain. I would give my young boys a open hand swat to a well padded butt, there was never pain, did they cry? yes. A bee sting, having a branch snap back on you or having a child pinch you should hurt more than a spanking, but they are not bad enough to make you cry. Two more points I want to make and I'll try to shut up about it. First I have seen numerous mothers calmly tell their out of control child to go to time out and I saw the child run to the time out area with a big smile, within 15 or 30 seconds the child comes running back asking to get out of time out or simply leave time out. When they just left there was usually no further action taken by the mother, when asking to leave time out after 15 seconds the mother asked if they were going to be good? That is not discipline it is a sad joke on raising a child, I'm not saying you have to spank but the child's actions need some consequences that will remind them they may not want to do something they know to be wrong........ it's the same with telling the child they have until the count of three, 1, 2, 2 and a half, 2 and 3/4....... is not the count of three it's bad parenting. My final point, I said Tua's story was taken out of context, I still think it was. i see a smile on Tua's face, I see love in the face of both parents, it's my own opinion I have no proof but I don't believe he was ever beaten for throwing a pic. Do I believe a media member may creatively edit film to change the content of a story or the facts of what was said?........... which is more likely?
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Re: Weird Tua Story

Post by Duck07 »

StevensTechU wrote: Please show any reliable scientific study supporting what you just said.
Please show any reliable scientific study supporting what you have said as well, please.
The scientific evidence from these studies has consistently shown that spanking is related to harmful outcomes for children.

This has been best demonstrated in two landmark meta-analyses led by Dr. Elizabeth Gershoff. The first paper, published in 2002, reviewed and analyzed 88 studies published in the 62 years prior and found that physical punishment was associated with physical abuse, delinquency and antisocial behaviour .

An updated meta-analysis was most recently published in 2016. This reviewed and analyzed 75 studies from the previous 13 years, concluding that there was no evidence that spanking improved child behaviour and that spanking was associated with an increased risk of 13 detrimental outcomes . These include aggression, antisocial behaviour, mental health problems and negative relationships with parents.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

Post by Duck07 »

Phalanx wrote:Interesting quote from Proverbs I found recently: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die."

Lots of strong opinions on this. I usually only listen to people who have actually had children. Others are just speculating. I've seen lots of different approaches, but interestingly, I can usually tell the families that incorporate corporal punishment and those that don't. The former usually have better-behaved and more respectful children. My sense is that the general idea is not to leave marks or do it out of anger, but just as a jolt in order to correct smaller kids. Teenagers can be really difficult, as I am finding in recent years, but spanking seems really out of place. Reasoning or some kind of sanction seems like a better idea. The Tua quote does seem odd in terms of associating physical punishment with sports performance (it might have just been framed oddly because of the interview dynamic), but he clearly loves his family, and I find that to be the most important thing. Everyone screws up, but love covers a multitude of sins.
Just remember that for every person who thinks they are spanking a child the "right way" you've got another who isn't. There is no benefit, not even with small children because cognitively they just don't get it. They will act out of fear of retribution not because they "learned their lesson."
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