Weird Tua Story

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StevensTechU
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Re: Weird Tua Story

Post by StevensTechU »

Duck07 wrote:
The scientific evidence from these studies has consistently shown that spanking is related to harmful outcomes for children.

This has been best demonstrated in two landmark meta-analyses led by Dr. Elizabeth Gershoff. The first paper, published in 2002, reviewed and analyzed 88 studies published in the 62 years prior and found that physical punishment was associated with physical abuse, delinquency and antisocial behaviour .

An updated meta-analysis was most recently published in 2016. This reviewed and analyzed 75 studies from the previous 13 years, concluding that there was no evidence that spanking improved child behaviour and that spanking was associated with an increased risk of 13 detrimental outcomes . These include aggression, antisocial behaviour, mental health problems and negative relationships with parents.
Woof. Come for football, get really bad "study" that is actually just a review of other studies ("meta-analysis"). I started reading it, but since it's a compilation, it would literally take weeks and I'd rather give a prompt response.

So here's what a good study would do: about 11 groups that control for socioeconomics, gender, race, IQ, religion, mental health (at young ages, primarily ADHD), and prior behavior (as Larzelere has studied, this is almost uniformly left out). Two groups would be exposed to each of the following forms of discipline (except "none") and families wouldn't be able to pick their form of discipline: verbal only, psychological, physical, verbal and psychological, verbal and physical, and none. Of each of the two sets assigned to those groups, one group receives aggressive feedback while the other receives non-aggressive feedback. Outcomes would be measured by traditional measures such as educational attainment, teen pregnancy rates, lifetime earnings, imprisonment, and relationship status. Specific to the issue, classroom performance and classroom interruptions would be paramount.

That study, or anything like it, doesn't exist. What does that lead me to think? That you leave it all in the toolbox and see what configuration works for you, your family, and your kid.

How those studies are conducted are worse than just my anecdotal natural experiment.

Controlling for race, socioeconomics, religion, and mental health, my oldest brother and I were quite different and received differing punishments. I was spanked only a few times as a kid. Typically, a stern talking to or putting my child-self in the corner did the trick. I grew up to get a degree and make management in the financial sector by 27. My oldest brother wasn't the same. He misbehaved and stepped out of line whenever you gave him space, and a trip to the corner meant constant monitoring or he'd evade punishment. Physical punishment was about the only thing he responded to, and thus he was spanked much more than I was. He grew up to be a non-violent, married union man out in eastern Washington who just bought his second home. Anecdotal but informative, because if he was subject to the studies you linked, it would say that spanking would result in more behavior issues and result in negative lifetime earnings since he makes less. But since they don't account for the other factors, specifically prior behavior and IQ, they're useless. I'm left saying, when looking at how he's turned out, my parents generally did the right thing. Different strokes for different folks. I'm yet to find a study, including what I was able to cover in what you sent over, to say any different.

To give even more anecdotal narrative here, even between my parents it was divided. When my dad spanked us, you were told what you did wrong and were forced to internalize the pairing of misdeed and negative outcome. You also got a lesson of how your actions affected others so that you got a moral lesson out of it, paired with the repercussion. Conversely, my mom would often get pissed and fly off the handle and take knuckles to the top of your head. There wasn't a lesson, just tears, usually. To folks like Duck07 and the researchers who advise against physical punishment, this reprimand and the former are apparently the same thing. To anybody else reading, you can very obviously see the difference.
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Phalanx
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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Duck07 wrote:
Phalanx wrote:Interesting quote from Proverbs I found recently: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die."

Lots of strong opinions on this. I usually only listen to people who have actually had children. Others are just speculating. I've seen lots of different approaches, but interestingly, I can usually tell the families that incorporate corporal punishment and those that don't. The former usually have better-behaved and more respectful children. My sense is that the general idea is not to leave marks or do it out of anger, but just as a jolt in order to correct smaller kids. Teenagers can be really difficult, as I am finding in recent years, but spanking seems really out of place. Reasoning or some kind of sanction seems like a better idea. The Tua quote does seem odd in terms of associating physical punishment with sports performance (it might have just been framed oddly because of the interview dynamic), but he clearly loves his family, and I find that to be the most important thing. Everyone screws up, but love covers a multitude of sins.
Just remember that for every person who thinks they are spanking a child the "right way" you've got another who isn't. There is no benefit, not even with small children because cognitively they just don't get it. They will act out of fear of retribution not because they "learned their lesson."
Like I said, a lot of people have different opinions. I have seen a lot of children raised in my life, and I am in my 18th year of parenting, so I have a pretty good idea what kids get cognitively and what they don't. I don't just automatically yield to anyone writing a study on that topic. I don't think there is any one-size-fits-all formula for raising kids, but administering corporal punishment does work for teaching respect and adjusting behavior in a lot of cases. After the age of reason, reason should be used whenever possible.
Just for the record, I don't look at how much money kids grow up to make as any measure of success or failure in terms of parenting, although the goal should certainly be to raise adults who can contribute rather than subtract from society. Life philosophy has as much to do with income level as anything else.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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Phalanx wrote:Interesting quote from Proverbs I found recently: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die."
Curious to how you read this.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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StevensTechU wrote:Please show any reliable scientific study supporting what you just said.
American Academy of Pediatrics
https://www.healthychildren.org/English ... nking.aspx
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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Geez.... I hate the off-season
OregonFan4life -
My source just said Chip is officially back!
It will be announced at Autzen press conference tomorrow afternoon!
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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Phalanx wrote:Interesting quote from Proverbs I found recently: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die."

Lots of strong opinions on this. I usually only listen to people who have actually had children. Others are just speculating. I've seen lots of different approaches, but interestingly, I can usually tell the families that incorporate corporal punishment and those that don't. The former usually have better-behaved and more respectful children. My sense is that the general idea is not to leave marks or do it out of anger, but just as a jolt in order to correct smaller kids. Teenagers can be really difficult, as I am finding in recent years, but spanking seems really out of place. Reasoning or some kind of sanction seems like a better idea. The Tua quote does seem odd in terms of associating physical punishment with sports performance (it might have just been framed oddly because of the interview dynamic), but he clearly loves his family, and I find that to be the most important thing. Everyone screws up, but love covers a multitude of sins.
Psalms 23:4, “Even when I walk through the darkest valley, I will not be afraid, for you are close beside me. Your rod and your staff protect and comfort me.” The rod isn’t a tool for discipline but a tool for guidance. I personally believe when they verse in Provers is being used in that context, it’s being misquoted.

My wife has a degree from Cal Poly in Child Psychology, she has extensive research and studies on physical discipline for children and the damages it does to a child. Unfortunately 99% of the time, when a parent physically “disciplines” a child it’s not for correction but rather a display of power, a “whose in charge” statement. Children subconsciously expect comfort from parents, and that’s not to say they don’t test boundaries and need tough loving at times, but excessive physical discipline communicates contrasting and confusing messages to a child. If you see an abused child, even though they’ve been beaten before, they continue to go to their parents, because it’s in their nature to do that. Believe me, as a child that was abused, picked up by the neck and thrown at the wall as a young child, it only causes confusion and anger when I just needed to know everything was OK, even if that was annoying to my father.

In this situation, I see enough to believe Tua’s father was only power hungry and controlling and did not have his son’s best intentions in mind. I hope no parent follows this example.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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Boom wrote:
Phalanx wrote:Interesting quote from Proverbs I found recently: "Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die."
Curious to how you read this.
I think that is a fair question, even if you are only asking it in order to shoot down the response. Like I said, I found it recently, so my reading is not totally solidified. The first thing that stands out to me is that even people in the Ancient Near East 3000 years ago had difficulties in figuring out how best to fetch up their kids. Secondly, there seems to be a very clear exhortation to take an active role in guiding / correcting / chastising children, rather than a passive, 'hands-off' approach.

The rest of the passage (Proverbs 23:13-14) reminds me very much of Matthew 5:29-30. I think the author may be saying that whatever temporary pain (either physical or mental/ spiritual) one may need to endure in order to be steered to the right path is far easier a burden than spending eternity separated from God. I note that many are afraid that physical punishment of children may lead to them not being confident, fearless money-makers. Not everyone views this is the goal for child-rearing. If my children learn to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with their God, I will consider my parenting a success, regardless of where their career path takes them.

I know, I know, come for football, get a sermon. Well, you asked how I read it. :lol:

Anyway, not sure how this applies to Tua and his dad. The tie-in to sports and academic performance seems disturbing, but I still think it may just have been a function of the way the question was presented. It seems hard to believe that anyone would systematically beat this child for throwing an interception. It's more likely to me that Tua is simply vaguely answering the question of what might happen with what he equates in his life with parental accountability. "I'll get a belt whipping" at his age is likely equivalent to 'I'll go to jail' for a full-fledged adult - just an extreme that covers all of the lesser punishments one might receive.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

Post by dthomas=ddixon »

Just want to say I appreciated and enjoyed this discussion on disciplining children. Good takes all around.

I was raised in a very conservative Christian home and was spanked growing up. My father was a pastor and very psychologically abusive but spanking was as far as he went physically. I’ve never felt the spanking did me much harm; it was the psychological abuse and the resulting lack of relationship w/ him that wreaked havoc on me.

I’m 28 now, married, and expecting my first child so for the first time I’m having to decide how I truly feel about spanking. Which is why I appreciated reading all of your thoughts. I don’t know how many of you read/listen to Jordan B. Peterson but in his book 12 Rules for Life he states that you should use “minimum necessary force” and that the priority of a parent is to make their child socially desirable. I find that to be a fairly balanced stance that allows for leeway depending on the child’s personality. Which, based on my observations, seems like a good starting point. All of my peers who have socially desirable kids have taken a balanced, discerning approach specific to each child. While my peers who have taken a rigid approach, whose goal seems to be to produce robotic, unthinking offspring, have created monstrous kids who are absolutely grating to be around.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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The priority of a parent should NOT be to make a child "socially desirable". lmao wtf
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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As a former teacher who has witnessed the effects of and reported abuse, and who now has an adult child and grandson, watching people support spanking is much like reading the manifesto of an enemy.

Tired of hearing "well I turned out fine."

No.

Now you are doing this too; excusing this too.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

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JIDuck97 wrote:As a former teacher who has witnessed the effects of and reported abuse, and who now has an adult child and grandson, watching people support spanking is much like reading the manifesto of an enemy.

Tired of hearing "well I turned out fine."

No.

Now you are doing this too; excusing this too.
It would be a mistake to view any loving parent's opinion as a 'manifesto of an enemy', but of course, that is your choice. I'm not too keen on folks who raise wild children and then release them onto society for the rest of us to deal with. Very often, those youths will suffer far more hard knocks in life as a result of their unchecked behavior than they did from the bottom-paddling they got as kids. So in most cases, those who are willing take take corrective action in its various forms are helping not only their children, but society in general. I would just say that whatever you do, do it in love.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

Post by JIDuck97 »

Phalanx wrote:
JIDuck97 wrote:As a former teacher who has witnessed the effects of and reported abuse, and who now has an adult child and grandson, watching people support spanking is much like reading the manifesto of an enemy.

Tired of hearing "well I turned out fine."

No.

Now you are doing this too; excusing this too.
It would be a mistake to view any loving parent's opinion as a 'manifesto of an enemy', but of course, that is your choice. I'm not too keen on folks who raise wild children and then release them onto society for the rest of us to deal with. Very often, those youths will suffer far more hard knocks in life as a result of their unchecked behavior than they did from the bottom-paddling they got as kids. So in most cases, those who are willing take take corrective action in its various forms are helping not only their children, but society in general. I would just say that whatever you do, do it in love.
Mine us from the perspective of someone who witnessed victims of abuse.
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Alan
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Re: Weird Tua Story

Post by Alan »

JIDuck97 wrote:
Phalanx wrote:
JIDuck97 wrote:As a former teacher who has witnessed the effects of and reported abuse, and who now has an adult child and grandson, watching people support spanking is much like reading the manifesto of an enemy.

Tired of hearing "well I turned out fine."

No.

Now you are doing this too; excusing this too.
It would be a mistake to view any loving parent's opinion as a 'manifesto of an enemy', but of course, that is your choice. I'm not too keen on folks who raise wild children and then release them onto society for the rest of us to deal with. Very often, those youths will suffer far more hard knocks in life as a result of their unchecked behavior than they did from the bottom-paddling they got as kids. So in most cases, those who are willing take take corrective action in its various forms are helping not only their children, but society in general. I would just say that whatever you do, do it in love.
Mine us from the perspective of someone who witnessed victims of abuse.
A swat to the child's butt does not mean it's abuse. A parent should never discipline out of anger but a swat to the ass is effective on a younger child........ my ex wife also got to suck on a bar of soap if her mouth produced cuss words.... very effective and no pain.
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Alan
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Re: Weird Tua Story

Post by Alan »

dthomas=ddixon wrote:Just want to say I appreciated and enjoyed this discussion on disciplining children. Good takes all around.

I was raised in a very conservative Christian home and was spanked growing up. My father was a pastor and very psychologically abusive but spanking was as far as he went physically. I’ve never felt the spanking did me much harm; it was the psychological abuse and the resulting lack of relationship w/ him that wreaked havoc on me.

I’m 28 now, married, and expecting my first child so for the first time I’m having to decide how I truly feel about spanking. Which is why I appreciated reading all of your thoughts. I don’t know how many of you read/listen to Jordan B. Peterson but in his book 12 Rules for Life he states that you should use “minimum necessary force” and that the priority of a parent is to make their child socially desirable. I find that to be a fairly balanced stance that allows for leeway depending on the child’s personality. Which, based on my observations, seems like a good starting point. All of my peers who have socially desirable kids have taken a balanced, discerning approach specific to each child. While my peers who have taken a rigid approach, whose goal seems to be to produce robotic, unthinking offspring, have created monstrous kids who are absolutely grating to be around.
Congrats on the soon to be birth of your first child! As a father of four sons all in the 30's I only have one word of advice. Things have changed since my day as a young father, 30 years ago I thought nothing of enjoying a bubble bath with my toddlers, there does come an age when it gets weird and time to stop. same for giving a child a swat on their butt...... usually a well padded butt. The thing that has changed is there I see always people out there who just know they have the right way of doing things and if you very even a little they well feel justified and satisfied and call children services. Some view a father or mother washing an infant in their bath sexual abuse when the truth is there is nothing further from the truth. They are the PETA group for children, no better then the sector of animals rights groups that believe your dog is a slave, not a companion. All I'm saying there's are do gooders who are looking to make life for other hard.
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Re: Weird Tua Story

Post by Duck07 »

If corporal punishment is so useful, how come we don't use it on adults?
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