Who is your surprise duck football player this season so far

[gogreen55]

Armstead and Buckner have both been good.

Good? You must have pretty low expectations for a guy that many consider to be an early entry first round NFL draft pick. We are halfway through the season and Armstead has 1 sack for -2 yards. I'll give him credit for the timing of the sack, but it was as much of a product of Connor Cook stepping up into the sack as anything else. Regardless, even giving him all the credit in the world for that, what else has he done to stand out? He has 17 total tackles this season (10 solo, 7 assisted). To put into perspective how average (I am being nice here) that is, he is on pace for well below half the total Taylor Hart had last year. He has well below half the tackles Buckner has this season, less than half the sacks and half the tackles for loss. There are a bunch of defensive linemen across the Pac-12 producing at the modest level Armstead is, or better. He missed the UCLA game and a person could hardly tell. He played against Washington and a person would hardly notice, other than his hands to the face penalty. The dude just isn't doing anything to stand out. So yeah, if you consider "good" to be producing like any average Pac-12 defensive line starter would be expected to, then he is meeting expectations. If you expected him to perform like a player that was supposedly dominating during camp, and thinks he is good enough to justify leaving school early in order to become a first round NFL draft pick, his production has been extremely disappointing.

It is unfair to lump Buckner in with Armstead, since Buckner has clearly been more productive. That is why I specifically said my disappointment is mainly with Armstead, and to a lesser degree Buckner. That being said, I still expect more from Buckner when it comes to pass rush. When teams are in obvious passing situations, he is not winning his matchup on the line as often as he should (in my opinion). With Armstead and Buckner on the field, the Ducks should be able to get more consistent pressure than they have been getting with a 4 man rush. This would be a good week for them both to step up their games and start playing like the dynamic duo most expected before the season began. They will get plenty of opportunities to stand out more than they have been against Cal.

[Phenom]

Armstead and Buckner have both been good.

Good? You must have pretty low expectations for a guy that many consider to be an early entry first round NFL draft pick. We are halfway through the season and Armstead has 1 sack for -2 yards. I'll give him credit for the timing of the sack, but it was as much of a product of Connor Cook stepping up into the sack as anything else. Regardless, even giving him all the credit in the world for that, what else has he done to stand out? He has 17 total tackles this season (10 solo, 7 assisted). To put into perspective how average (I am being nice here) that is, he is on pace for well below half the total Taylor Hart had last year. He has well below half the tackles Buckner has this season, less than half the sacks and half the tackles for loss. There are a bunch of defensive linemen across the Pac-12 producing at the modest level Armstead is, or better. He missed the UCLA game and a person could hardly tell. He played against Washington and a person would hardly notice, other than his hands to the face penalty. The dude just isn't doing anything to stand out. So yeah, if you consider "good" to be producing like any average Pac-12 defensive line starter would be expected to, then he is meeting expectations. If you expected him to perform like a player that was supposedly dominating during camp, and thinks he is good enough to justify leaving school early in order to become a first round NFL draft pick, his production has been extremely disappointing.

It is unfair to lump Buckner in with Armstead, since Buckner has clearly been more productive. That is why I specifically said my disappointment is mainly with Armstead, and to a lesser degree Buckner. That being said, I still expect more from Buckner when it comes to pass rush. When teams are in obvious passing situations, he is not winning his matchup on the line as often as he should (in my opinion). With Armstead and Buckner on the field, the Ducks should be able to get more consistent pressure than they have been getting with a 4 man rush. This would be a good week for them both to step up their games and start playing like the dynamic duo most expected before the season began. They will get plenty of opportunities to stand out more than they have been against Cal.

Serious question: do you know the roles of 3-4 DEs vs 4-3 DEs?

[gogreen55]

Serious question: do you know the roles of 3-4 DEs vs 4-3 DEs?

Uh, yeah. You realize that Taylor Hart and DeForest Buckner played/play in the same defensive scheme while more than doubling Armstead's production, right? Don't bother trying to justify your initial silly implication that Armstead is producing up to expectations. There is no justification for it because it is out of touch with reality.

By the way, if you are under the impression that the coaches don't want Armstead and Buckner to generate a pass rush in passing situations, there are some bigger issues with your football understanding than we can cover here.

[QuackininBama]

Keep in mind the better part of the year we are using a 3 man front which puts Armstead&co going 3 on 5, sometimes 6. Numbers arn't going to come from that defensive set.

[QuackininBama]

But I'll concede that when he was recruited, I thought he was going to be a monster, just throwing people around averaging 7-10 sacks a year and he sure hasn't come even close to what I feel his potential is.

[GrandpaDuck]

Keep in mind the better part of the year we are using a 3 man front which puts Armstead&co going 3 on 5, sometimes 6. Numbers arn't going to come from that defensive set.

You're right 3 Man front won't produce big numbers on average. Taylor Hart's were outstanding considering the system. But watch Henry Anderson at Stanford in a 3 man front and compare him to Armstead. The gap is mind blowing. And its not just stats, Henry Andersen blows up a side of the line almost every play leaving the linebackers to mop up. Armstead has little more impact than Sam Kamp does when he is in there.

The hilarious thing is because of high school rating and supposed "potential" Armstead might be drafted way higher than Andersen even though they are about the same size but Andersen is way stronger.

Their fat squatty nose guard is a fricken' beast too even though he doesn't rack up stats like Shelton he seems to impacts more plays. (The subjective eye test not the stat line.)

[Duck07]

Keep in mind the better part of the year we are using a 3 man front which puts Armstead&co going 3 on 5, sometimes 6. Numbers arn't going to come from that defensive set.

You're right 3 Man front won't produce big numbers on average. Taylor Hart's were outstanding considering the system. But watch Henry Anderson at Stanford in a 3 man front and compare him to Armstead. The gap is mind blowing. And its not just stats, Henry Andersen blows up a side of the line almost every play leaving the linebackers to mop up. Armstead has little more impact than Sam Kamp does when he is in there.

The hilarious thing is because of high school rating and supposed "potential" Armstead might be drafted way higher than Andersen even though they are about the same size but Andersen is way stronger.

Their fat squatty nose guard is a fricken' beast too even though he doesn't rack up stats like Shelton he seems to impacts more plays. (The subjective eye test not the stat line.)

Aside from trying to compare what Stanford does to what we do (we play with kids gloves and pads, they go Kickboxer and try to dip their hands in broken glass), at the NFL level, you might find a team that likes your potential but if you haven't done anything with it, it's not going to get you drafted high. Armstead is not a 1st rounder (or even a 3rd rounder) right now and as has been pointed out, Buckner has clearly been the best DL. At his best right now, Armstead is a 2 down player in the NFL at 5 tech, as a backup. Fortunately the NFL has changed grading so you now get a 1st, 2nd, late or not drafted grade to try and keep more underclassmen in school.

[GrantDuck]

Anyone saying Buckner has been a disappointment needs to lay that pipe down. Dude is one of our top tacklers as a DE and has been our only consistent DL.


Surprising Good:
I think Marshall and Hill are the two absolute obvious and correct ones. No way I could see Marshall as this good as a TZR type player. Hill has skyrocketed from a nickel corner teams picked on to a very solid DB.

Pisarcik is also a good choice along with Evan Baylis. Sam Kamp giving good minutes has also been a surprise to me.

I think #1 though has got to be:
Joe freaking Walker! He still has some strides to make in open space, but damn, he is an awesome tackler against the run.

Surprising Bad:
Balducci. I thought he'd make a big leap this year and he's been pushed around like a freshman.
Malone. Regressed for whatever reason.
Armstead. Thought after the Michigan State game that he might have a dominant season.

[QuackininBama]

Joe freaking Walker! He still has some strides to make in open space, but damn, he is an awesome tackler against the run.

Walker plays alot like Alonso. Give that kid more playing time for crips sake.

[Duffman57]

Focusing on defense...

Positive: Troy Hill. I figured he would be improved based on preseason reports, but a lot of times those reports don't quite pan out as expected in actual games (see below). Perhaps his most dramatic improvement has come from learning how to avoid pass interference penalties....he used to be an absolute magnet for them. Hopefully he can keep up this superb level of play the rest of the way.

Negative: Arik Armstead (mainly) & DeForest Buckner (to a lesser extent). I don't know if I am really that surprised that Armstead has underachieved yet again since he is a career underachiever, but there was hope he might bust out this season based on preseason reports. Other than a few plays he made against Michigan State, he just hasn't made that many big plays and hasn't had the impact I was hoping for. Buckner is more solid and reliable than Armstead, but he also hasn't made as many big plays as I was hoping for. These two look the part of future NFL players based on measurements, but the production hasn't matched thus far. Hopefully they both start dominating more down the stretch.

So your dissapointed in 2, 2-gapping 3-4 DE's for not putting up big stats? Thats dumb...

[Greenblood]

Surprising Good:
Sam Kamp giving good minutes has also been a surprise to me.

Surprising Bad:
Balducci. I thought he'd make a big leap this year and he's been pushed around like a freshman,

I thought the somewhat (to me) surprisingly frank tweet by Moseley Sat. night that I've copied below was appropriate for the comments from GrantDuck I've excerpted above.

Rob Moseley
‏@DuckFootball Definitely appears as though Sam Kamp is the first-string nose tackle at this point. No idea what might be going on with Balducci.

[gogreen55]

So your dissapointed in 2, 2-gapping 3-4 DE's for not putting up big stats? Thats dumb...

Read the thread slowly and you may actually learn something Duffman, rather than exposing yourself as a comparative half-wit. The comedy value of you using the word "dumb" while filling your short post with a string of 3rd grade level grammatical/spelling errors was not lost on me, however. Well done.

[Duffman57]

So your disappointed in 2, 2-gapping 3-4 DE's for not putting up big stats? That's dumb...

Read the thread slowly and you may actually learn something Duffman, rather than exposing yourself as a comparative half-wit. The comedy value of you using the word "dumb" while filling your short post with a string of 3rd grade level grammatical/spelling errors was not lost on me, however. Well done.

Learn about what? The entire job of the 3-4 DE (4i technique) in this system is to hold blocks and allow for LB's to come up and make plays. While Pellum seems to have taken the unnecessary creativity that Allioti had (at times over-thinking himself or so it seemed) out of the scheme, he seems to have kept a good portion of the base schemes.

Deforest and Arik's job collectively (obviously differ in some situations), is to force attention from both the OG and OT. This is no the JJ Watt show where half his snaps come from the 3T where they are asked to penetrate and make plays. That is not, and doesn't seem to ever be the goal in how we play.

Asking them, to beat 2 blocks and consistently make plays, would call for them to be an absolutely elite talent, the level of what JJ Watt would be doing if he was playing in college right now (because he barely ever does it from the 4i or 5 techniques in the NFL). They've been dominant by doing their jobs (commanding constant double teams, and giving lanes for LB's to make plays.

You happy now that i gave you a nice walk-through of it....?

[gogreen55]

Duffman, here is a hint. Go back and read the posts comparing Armstead's lack of production to past/current players in the same system. Using your simple minded logic, a defensive end in our scheme could finish the year with 0 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 QB pressures and you would be here defending them, saying that is all they are expected to do in this system. Players less highly touted can, and have, produced far more in this scheme. That is the point. Comprende?

Don't expect me to hold your hand and walk you through these same obvious points again. In your immortal words, "thats dumb" [sic] for me to expect this to sink in if it hasn't already.

[Duffman57]

Duffman, here is a hint. Go back and read the posts comparing Armstead's lack of production to past/current players in the same system. Using your simple minded logic, a defensive end in our scheme could finish the year with 0 tackles, 0 sacks, 0 QB pressures and you would be here defending them, saying that is all they are expected to do in this system. Players less highly touted can, and have, produced far more in this scheme. That is the point. Comprende?

Don't expect me to hold your hand and walk you through these same obvious points again. In your immortal words, "thats dumb" [sic] for me to expect this to sink in if it hasn't already.

he's also getting quite a bit more attention than Hart was. His length and athleticism has people keying in on him, and forcing the OL to stick on him first. Tony Washington played quite a bit better last year. Also, the schemes were different, Aliotti was much more creative in bringing pressure, freeing the OL to pick and choose where they wanted to block, lead to more single blocks on DL.

Wen't back and watched a cut up of all the passing downs vs Michigan state. There was 2 plays where he wasn't double (or triple, which happened 4 times) teamed. One was the sack, where the back just didn't step up before he got the pressure, the other was a quick slant, where he had no chance to do anything but get his hands up.

I'm not going to sit here and say he's been an elite talent. But he hasn't been bad at all.

Case and point, stop box score scouting, and go re-watch the games.