"The argument" put in perspective, dead on analyses by Joey

[vegasdom]

Only coach I think should be fired is DP, defense shouldn't be giving up that many points, especially a team that is a run first team. Offensive line seems to be getting a pass, they haven't been giving our backs the holes to run through as usual. Every elite team has a drop off (USC, Florida, Texas, Michigan) so I'm not flipping out like most people.

Its not the Offensive line it the play calling. Run to the left, run to the left, run to the left. No spacing. Run the read option with QBs who really cant run, and when the team was down 2-3 TDs it was complete panic in the play calling forcing Lockie to make throws he can't.

The numbers don't lie. Worst D in the Pac-12. Next time the Duck get 50-60 point dropped on them, and it will probably happen because Pellum doesn't know how to make adjustments, I want to see him escorted from the stadium by security!

[gofightingducks]

Based on Ducks recent history as far as defense goes the most recent two seasons the team fielded an inexperienced secondary they went 4-7 both times, that was with NA as the D coordinator, granted that was also before the talent the Ducks have now. The other stat is the season after the teams Heisman winner left, Texas, Texas A&M, Florida, Auburn and others......... all teams that struggled the season after the Heisman winner left. I am okay with the team having a down season, what I want to see though is a team that competes and gets better, a team that doesn't quit and coaches that mix things up, be more aggressive and creative, play to win, not playing not to lose. Utah is a very good team but not 42 points better at Autzen than the Ducks.

[pezsez1]

Looks like many of our players are tired of the argument, too: http://www.oregonlive.com/ducks/index.s ... cart_river

"I had someone tweet at me saying, 'I'm sorry you have to play for one of our coaches,'" senior outside linebacker Tyson Coleman said. "I'm like, what are you talking about? They have no idea what it's like being a college athlete, a college coach, how much work everybody puts in. It was us, we weren't executing out there. It wasn't the coaches' fault."

[srsmiley007]

Pellum is in over his head. If Oregon wants to remain elite it needs elite coaching or just listen to the old people on this forum who think its acceptable to have the worst D, not just in the Pac-12 but probably west of the Mississippi. So don't tell fans how to react. The Ducks have made it to an elite level and we want to see them remain there. Yes great programs have down years, but when the new guys take the program that has been built over the last decade and and turn it into complete turmoil from Defense to Offense you bet we are going to call for heads to ROLL!

Like Joey said, "Relax." The program is not imploding so there's really no need for wholesale changes. They're just going through a bit of a transition with players being thrown into new roles and having a rash of injuries at key positions. Give the coaches and players some time to figure it out. I'm not sure why people thought they'd be exactly where they were last season, especially after losing talented, all-conference players like Mariota, Grasu, Fisher, Armstead, Ifo, Hill, and Dargan to the NFL and then Seisay, Marshall, Tyner, and Brown to injury.

Joey's wrong. The "D" has been horrible for 4 straight games and without turnovers from FSU I would say 5 strait games. Our D line talent is the best it's been and they can't use them. Mattingly sits while Hardrick plays. The D doesn't utilize athleticism and is predicated upon turnovers solely. Watch the D-line, because they run so much two-gap (all DL's), the ability to generate a pass rush is impacted and it's virtually a guaranteed 3 yards per rush. It's a ridiculous scheme but made sense when Alliotti did it because he couldn't get the hosses up front in recruiting but could get athletic LB's and blitzed with precision. It's clear that Pellum doesn't know what he's doing. His only experience has been at Oregon so his ability to administer different defense schemes is impugned.

It was a huge mistake not getting Orlando when they had the chance..... We would have won the Natty with a competent, aggressive defense. At least Alliotti could out-scheme the competition. We need someone who truly knows what they're doing. You want to give him time, I agree that he shouldn't be let go until the end of the year but keep this in mind.. They're will always be youth and inexperience. That can't be an excuse. If it hasn't worked yet it's not going to magically get better. The offense hid a lot of flaws with the scheme because scoring points fast and consistently brings the clock into play once we're ahead and forced teams to take a pass heavy approach once they fell behind. If we struggle offensively, the complexity of what the other team can run changes. When we have to face a multi-dimensional offense than Pellum's turnover bend philosophy is dead in the water. In other words, the offense is also indirectly playing defense for us. When that fails, we fail. Hence the reason we can't win unless we score 30. Alliotti could at least leverage his scheme and dial-it-up when it counted. DP is lost, there's no fire, there's no tactical adjustments, he doesn't know what he's doing and it will never be better than last year when he had an offense that helped him play defense run by arguably the best college QB in the last decade. He's not NA and shouldn't have the position. He doesn't get it. Probably a decent position coach but now that he's less focused on his position duties, we're failing there as well. Face the facts, when have you ever seen a D coordinator have 2 success seasons while getting better talent ever "get better." It's not going to happen!

We better look out because I watched the Beavers and they have the scheme and coaching but literally no talent. In 2 years without changes and possibly even by the end of this season, they'll be beat us.

[pezsez1]

Face the facts, when have you ever seen a D coordinator have 2 success seasons while getting better talent

I don't think any of us can say whether our safeties/corners now are actually better or worse than players from previous seasons -- especially since our corners never played until this season. Other than their recruiting star rankings, we really know nothing about them as college football players. That's important to keep in mind when trying to compare apples-to-apples in years past.

Inexperience will always be a factor, sure... but rarely ever like this. Neither of our starting corners (or their backups) for this weekend's game played a single snap until this season, and only one of our starting safeties had significant PT at his position last year. You really won't find any good defense with that much inexperience on the field.

Otherwise, you bring up good points. DP may not be the right guy for the job, and he's a completely different animal than NA. But the team really needs our support right now, and it's too early in the year to bury this defense, especially after it played a decent game against one of the nation's top-ranked teams. We've seen the potential... now the coaches just need to bring it out, and our offense must do its job and not hang the D out to dry.

Fans do need to temper their expectations for this year, though, because the potential of these young guys may not be what we'd hoped to see. Schemes can only be simplified so much before they pose no threat to opposing offenses. But we'll see... there's a lot of football left to be played this year.

[buckmarkduck]

Are you just making things up now or just forgetting? Springs played plenty last year. I'll give you Ugo, but all 3 of our safeties played plenty of snaps last year, and played in the Rose Bowls and title game. What safety's do you see getting tricked by Elliot every time they show the td highlight?

[pezsez1]

Springs

I forgot he played last year. However, I think you're overestimating his impact, which is probably why I so easily forgot.

This, from goducks.com: "The reserve was credited with three tackles, including two unassisted stops against South Dakota in his most extensive playing time of the year . . . "

Also, I said up above that both safeties played last year. But Williams didn't take significant reps as a defensive reserve player until the last four or five games. Before then, he only really played on special teams.

I don't "make up" anything I say, which is usually why my posts are longer, because I'm usually very good about citing facts and stats.

Everyone makes mistakes, though. This is a great example of what happens when people post without actually doing some research first. I call people out on that all the time... thanks for reminding me to follow my own advice.

[QuackininBama]

Pez just stop bro. You sound like a Huskie blaming inexperience. Every single year every single team in college football has massive turnover. I don't see Ohio State, Alabama, Michigan State, TCU, Baylor, UCLA (both starting 1st time starting quarterbacks), Oklahoma, Florida State, USC, Stanford.....NO ONE else is blaming inexperience. It happens every single year to every single team. Its the coaches who plan for this who succeed.

[pezsez1]

Pez just stop bro. You sound like a Huskie blaming inexperience. Every single year every single team in college football has massive turnover. I don't see Ohio State, Alabama, Michigan State, TCU, Baylor, UCLA (both starting 1st time starting quarterbacks), Oklahoma, Florida State, USC, Stanford.....NO ONE else is blaming inexperience. It happens every single year to every single team. Its the coaches who plan for this who succeed.

Eh, my intention wasn't to "blame" inexperience. I was simply correcting the poster above me who incorrectly stated that UW's best-in-conference defense has similar inexperience in its secondary, which isn't true (and it only took me a few minutes to show it).

I'd actually really appreciate it if people would stop putting words in my mouth.

Just the other day, at least two people in one thread said I'd "defend the defense no matter how bad it gets," and that's just bullshit. And if you guys don't know that's bullshit, then you need to read more carefully before replying to my posts.

Seriously, it's insulting. Nobody chooses my words better than me.

And if you honestly want to debate me on something -- and I don't know what you'd possibly want to argue with here, seeing as how the facts are pretty black and white on this -- opening with "Pez, stop bro" isn't the way to start.

[srsmiley007]

In fairness all, the issue isn't really inexperience. If any of you have played, you'll find that spring and fall ball + 4 games of live action should be more than enough time to digest the philosophy and understand responsibilities. The issue is scheme, philosophy, play calling and adjustments on the defense and they are just not there.

We all wanted NA gone because of the philosophy of "bend-don't-break." However, all of the other pieces NA was solid with. I'm of the belief that he adopted this style of defense for 2 reasons:

1.) Lack of ability to recruit quality DL
2.) Pass heavy conference
3.) Turnovers

However, things have changed, we now get quality recruits on the DL and have the depth to go with other schemes that offer a more aggressive approach. I was even reading between the lines with preseason press that we might utilize a 4-2-5 or 4-3-4 and scrap the 2gap space eater approach. Alas, he hasn't adapted, he hasn't put in anything different but a more passive version of Alliotti's scheme. With all of the talent we had on defense last year we should have been at least in the top 20 for defense. However, that just wasn't the case. DP needs to go...... Sorry but after we play the Beavs I would give him the shoo's, usher in a new DC. I would probably keep Chinander (recruiting) and Neal (proven DB coach) and part ways with everyone else. I never hear any recruits getting fired up over any other coaches on the D.

Also, we should give Alie a shot. The point of the spread is the QB running threat. Wilson is slow and injured but ran much more effectively than Lockie ever will. Lockie is not quick, he may be fast but he's not quick. He also goes down way tooo easy. Let the local kid get a shot, at least he can run, which should open up some passing lanes.

[Duck07]

Outstanding take by Joey and Aaron. I hope all the posters wanting to fire Pellum/Greatwood/Frost/Helfrich/Neal/whoever take this opportunity to watch the video and educate themselves.

Here's a thought- instead of wanting to fire coaches, how about rallying behind them? How about understanding that yes, we've had some struggles this year, but how about getting behind our coaches, believing in our coaches, and supporting our coaches through thick and thin? Contrary to what a lot of you probably think, they're not idiots. None of them are- trust me. They know what's going on. They understand what's happening, they understand we're not firing on all cylinders, and I know they're going to do everything they can to coach these kids and win every single game remaining on our schedule.

We're 2-2, we still have at least 8 games left, 9 if we make a bowl game. There's a TON of football left to be played, so instead of calling for firings mid-season (which never works out by the way), how about showing some SUPPORT for a change.

Perspective is your friend.

You don't rally behind someone who looks lost and without a plan. I don't imagine you sail much, but if this was a ship, Pellum and Company would have had a mutiny with no one to support them. Pellum has been a player and long-time coach and that is great for him, but his ship has sailed its course and we need more changes because we've had too much groupthink from having too many long-time buddies. Nobody wants to be critical.

I don't know how you can say they know what's going on because if they did, these major problems wouldn't still be showing themselves again and again. 7 SR's in the front 7 and they play like crap. Stop looking at just the secondary when grading this defense. The guys with experience have NOT improved, especially at Pellum's position group.

Perspective is your friend only if you have something tangible to latch onto. What perspective is there that we will suddenly get better on defense over 8 games when in the last year and a half there only seems to be major regressions happening? I can understand making that argument with the Offense at least but there is nothing that supports anything but continued failure on the part of the defense. Frankly, the perspective in this case is what has me so pissed off.

[duckfan96]

I find this a bit funny. People get called out for calling out coaches, and get upset over it. Joey can say what he wants, just like all the dp haters do(and have done non stop).

[StevensTechU]

I like John Neal as much as I have liked about any coach. Good man, and has largely put a great product on the field over the last 10 years or so. But over the last 3-4 years the recruiting has been very porous for DBs, which has forced youth onto the field, and that's the problem. Trying to convert Charles Nelson, Malik Lovette, and Ty Griffin into DBs was not part of some elaborate plan, but the result of misses on the recruiting trail. I'm certainly not calling for his head by ANY means, but recognizing where the breakdown was.

[Cedar Tree]

Outstanding take by Joey and Aaron. I hope all the posters wanting to fire Pellum/Greatwood/Frost/Helfrich/Neal/whoever take this opportunity to watch the video and educate themselves.

Here's a thought- instead of wanting to fire coaches, how about rallying behind them? How about understanding that yes, we've had some struggles this year, but how about getting behind our coaches, believing in our coaches, and supporting our coaches through thick and thin? Contrary to what a lot of you probably think, they're not idiots. None of them are- trust me. They know what's going on. They understand what's happening, they understand we're not firing on all cylinders, and I know they're going to do everything they can to coach these kids and win every single game remaining on our schedule.

We're 2-2, we still have at least 8 games left, 9 if we make a bowl game. There's a TON of football left to be played, so instead of calling for firings mid-season (which never works out by the way), how about showing some SUPPORT for a change.

Perspective is your friend.

You don't rally behind someone who looks lost and without a plan. I don't imagine you sail much, but if this was a ship, Pellum and Company would have had a mutiny with no one to support them. Pellum has been a player and long-time coach and that is great for him, but his ship has sailed its course and we need more changes because we've had too much groupthink from having too many long-time buddies. Nobody wants to be critical.

I don't know how you can say they know what's going on because if they did, these major problems wouldn't still be showing themselves again and again. 7 SR's in the front 7 and they play like crap. Stop looking at just the secondary when grading this defense. The guys with experience have NOT improved, especially at Pellum's position group.

Perspective is your friend only if you have something tangible to latch onto. What perspective is there that we will suddenly get better on defense over 8 games when in the last year and a half there only seems to be major regressions happening? I can understand making that argument with the Offense at least but there is nothing that supports anything but continued failure on the part of the defense. Frankly, the perspective in this case is what has me so pissed off.

I understand the intent of your analogy, but this isn't a ship where a captain's abilities can mean the difference between hundreds of men living and dying. It's a football game.

And how quickly we forget about the numerous games where DP led a respectable defensive performance:
- 27 to Michigan State. Granted that's far from a shutout, but it tied their lowest point total of their whole season, and they scored only 3 points in the second half. It was also better than the Ohio State defense could do.
- 16 to Stanford.
- 10 to Colorado. Granted they weren't the greatest team in 2014, however that was their lowest point total of the season.
- 13 to Arizona in the Pac-12 championship, their second lowest point total of the season.
- 20 to Florida State, their lowest point total of the season.

You could make an argument for 2-3 more games as well, and in today's college football, I would argue that holding any FBS team to 20 points or less is a solid defensive effort.

[srsmiley007]

Outstanding take by Joey and Aaron. I hope all the posters wanting to fire Pellum/Greatwood/Frost/Helfrich/Neal/whoever take this opportunity to watch the video and educate themselves.

Here's a thought- instead of wanting to fire coaches, how about rallying behind them? How about understanding that yes, we've had some struggles this year, but how about getting behind our coaches, believing in our coaches, and supporting our coaches through thick and thin? Contrary to what a lot of you probably think, they're not idiots. None of them are- trust me. They know what's going on. They understand what's happening, they understand we're not firing on all cylinders, and I know they're going to do everything they can to coach these kids and win every single game remaining on our schedule.

We're 2-2, we still have at least 8 games left, 9 if we make a bowl game. There's a TON of football left to be played, so instead of calling for firings mid-season (which never works out by the way), how about showing some SUPPORT for a change.

Perspective is your friend.

You don't rally behind someone who looks lost and without a plan. I don't imagine you sail much, but if this was a ship, Pellum and Company would have had a mutiny with no one to support them. Pellum has been a player and long-time coach and that is great for him, but his ship has sailed its course and we need more changes because we've had too much groupthink from having too many long-time buddies. Nobody wants to be critical.

I don't know how you can say they know what's going on because if they did, these major problems wouldn't still be showing themselves again and again. 7 SR's in the front 7 and they play like crap. Stop looking at just the secondary when grading this defense. The guys with experience have NOT improved, especially at Pellum's position group.

Perspective is your friend only if you have something tangible to latch onto. What perspective is there that we will suddenly get better on defense over 8 games when in the last year and a half there only seems to be major regressions happening? I can understand making that argument with the Offense at least but there is nothing that supports anything but continued failure on the part of the defense. Frankly, the perspective in this case is what has me so pissed off.

I understand the intent of your analogy, but this isn't a ship where a captain's abilities can mean the difference between hundreds of men living and dying. It's a football game.

And how quickly we forget about the numerous games where DP led a respectable defensive performance:
- 27 to Michigan State. Granted that's far from a shutout, but it tied their lowest point total of their whole season, and they scored only 3 points in the second half. It was also better than the Ohio State defense could do.
- 16 to Stanford.
- 10 to Colorado. Granted they weren't the greatest team in 2014, however that was their lowest point total of the season.
- 13 to Arizona in the Pac-12 championship, their second lowest point total of the season.
- 20 to Florida State, their lowest point total of the season.

You could make an argument for 2-3 more games as well, and in today's college football, I would argue that holding any FBS team to 20 points or less is a solid defensive effort.

It's fine to bring up those performances as long as you look at the stats and a couple of realistic items germane to the argument that he is not a viable DC:

1.) Stanford was avg. last year and didn't show up until the last 3 game of the season.
2.) Colorado was the worst team in our conference
3.) FSU was moving the ball at will. Silly turnovers killed them
4.) Our offense was so good it actually played defense for us. (We score so fast and consistently that teams have to pass more when they fall behind).
5.) Without Turnovers we don"t win.
6.) Talent was there for a top 20 D, which we weren't.