Delusional

[wheaton4prez]

It effects those that weren't involved, but in a case like this how do you determine who was and wasn't involved? Who would've ever thought Paterno was apart of this? obviously the kids lose out for the crimes of others, but everybody knows that there are still people at PSU that were invovled with all this that are keeping quiet so they, or somebody else, won't be implicated. The only way to know that you're punishing those involved is to punish the entire school.

Isn't that the same argument that was used to justify Japanese internment camps during WWII?

[squintsdd]

It effects those that weren't involved, but in a case like this how do you determine who was and wasn't involved? Who would've ever thought Paterno was apart of this? obviously the kids lose out for the crimes of others, but everybody knows that there are still people at PSU that were invovled with all this that are keeping quiet so they, or somebody else, won't be implicated. The only way to know that you're punishing those involved is to punish the entire school.

Isn't that the same argument that was used to justify Japanese internment camps during WWII?

We're hardly throwing anybody into any camps in this case. Your comparison is way off

[Elduderino]

It effects those that weren't involved, but in a case like this how do you determine who was and wasn't involved? Who would've ever thought Paterno was apart of this? obviously the kids lose out for the crimes of others, but everybody knows that there are still people at PSU that were invovled with all this that are keeping quiet so they, or somebody else, won't be implicated. The only way to know that you're punishing those involved is to punish the entire school.

Isn't that the same argument that was used to justify Japanese internment camps during WWII?

We're hardly throwing anybody into any camps in this case. Your comparison is way off

I think you're missing the point. The comparison Wheaton is making isn't, "Death Penalty for PSU vs. Internment." It's about the logic that leads you there.

[Duck24]

It effects those that weren't involved, but in a case like this how do you determine who was and wasn't involved? Who would've ever thought Paterno was apart of this? obviously the kids lose out for the crimes of others, but everybody knows that there are still people at PSU that were invovled with all this that are keeping quiet so they, or somebody else, won't be implicated. The only way to know that you're punishing those involved is to punish the entire school.

Isn't that the same argument that was used to justify Japanese internment camps during WWII?

We're hardly throwing anybody into any camps in this case. Your comparison is way off

By punishing everyone with the death penalty or any other severe form of sanctions, you ruin the lives of everyone who didn't have to do anything with it. You put the Mom & Pop store in State College out of business as they are probably dependent upon the influx of visitors during football season. You put the Assistant Coach who wasn't even around when all of this went down out of a job. You put all of the popcorn/soda vendors out of a job, the grounds crew, the local radio guys etc. You would decimate that entire economy of that city/county. So while the internment camp comment is off base in one sense, it works in another. You are ruining the lives of anyone associated with the football program or who is dependent on the program.

To make it hit home a little more, imagine if this happened at U of O and a death penalty was given. How many hotels, restaurants, shops etc would go out of business? How much money would the boy scouts lose by not filling the parking lot where everyone pays $10-$20 per game to park? The residual effects are difficult to imagine. And that is in Eugene....not in State College, PA which is like 3 hours away from anything.

This isn't to say that the program/school shouldn't pay in one form or another (ie no televised games at home or some other creative discipline) but the death penalty does nothing. And let's be honest, the school has already paid quite a bit in terms of bad publicity and will probably lose hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of lawsuits and such. This pales in comparisons to the victims and monetary compensation doesn't make what happened to them any easier, but the school will pay....dearly.

[squintsdd]

It effects those that weren't involved, but in a case like this how do you determine who was and wasn't involved? Who would've ever thought Paterno was apart of this? obviously the kids lose out for the crimes of others, but everybody knows that there are still people at PSU that were invovled with all this that are keeping quiet so they, or somebody else, won't be implicated. The only way to know that you're punishing those involved is to punish the entire school.

Isn't that the same argument that was used to justify Japanese internment camps during WWII?

We're hardly throwing anybody into any camps in this case. Your comparison is way off

By punishing everyone with the death penalty or any other severe form of sanctions, you ruin the lives of everyone who didn't have to do anything with it. You put the Mom & Pop store in State College out of business as they are probably dependent upon the influx of visitors during football season. You put the Assistant Coach who wasn't even around when all of this went down out of a job. You put all of the popcorn/soda vendors out of a job, the grounds crew, the local radio guys etc. You would decimate that entire economy of that city/county. So while the internment camp comment is off base in one sense, it works in another. You are ruining the lives of anyone associated with the football program or who is dependent on the program.

To make it hit home a little more, imagine if this happened at U of O and a death penalty was given. How many hotels, restaurants, shops etc would go out of business? How much money would the boy scouts lose by not filling the parking lot where everyone pays $10-$20 per game to park? The residual effects are difficult to imagine. And that is in Eugene....not in State College, PA which is like 3 hours away from anything.

This isn't to say that the program/school shouldn't pay in one form or another (ie no televised games at home or some other creative discipline) but the death penalty does nothing. And let's be honest, the school has already paid quite a bit in terms of bad publicity and will probably lose hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of lawsuits and such. This pales in comparisons to the victims and monetary compensation doesn't make what happened to them any easier, but the school will pay....dearly.

I understand there will be side effects for those that had nothing to do with the scandal, but I hardly think that the big wigs at penn state get the severity of all this. They aren't even willing to pull down the paterno statue yet, and there are people outside protecting it. If they're doing that for a statue for POS coach who knowingly let this happen, who and what else are they protecting, and to what extent. It sucks for those that aren't involved, believe me I get that, but the only way for the people there to get a clue about how badly they've screwed up is to clean house and destroy that school.

Now, if the NCAA does give the death penalty, who are people going to blame for mom and pop losing their store, the NCAA or the people involved in all this? Of people say the NCAA, that's the wrong answer, because this is something that never should've gone this far if it weren't for a school trying to protect nothing but it's image.

[lukeyrid13]

With residual effects of this there is always going to be someone who wasn't involved in any way that is gonna get screwed over. Not saying I'm for or against death penalty but no matter the decision someone won't be happy.

I liken it to when someone goes to jail. A father could commit a crime and his kids who were not involved in any way are going to be affected by his sentence but just because it hurts those kids doesn't mean due justice should not be served against their father

[greenyellow]

It effects those that weren't involved, but in a case like this how do you determine who was and wasn't involved? Who would've ever thought Paterno was apart of this? obviously the kids lose out for the crimes of others, but everybody knows that there are still people at PSU that were invovled with all this that are keeping quiet so they, or somebody else, won't be implicated. The only way to know that you're punishing those involved is to punish the entire school.

Isn't that the same argument that was used to justify Japanese internment camps during WWII?

We're hardly throwing anybody into any camps in this case. Your comparison is way off

By punishing everyone with the death penalty or any other severe form of sanctions, you ruin the lives of everyone who didn't have to do anything with it. You put the Mom & Pop store in State College out of business as they are probably dependent upon the influx of visitors during football season. You put the Assistant Coach who wasn't even around when all of this went down out of a job. You put all of the popcorn/soda vendors out of a job, the grounds crew, the local radio guys etc. You would decimate that entire economy of that city/county. So while the internment camp comment is off base in one sense, it works in another. You are ruining the lives of anyone associated with the football program or who is dependent on the program.

To make it hit home a little more, imagine if this happened at U of O and a death penalty was given. How many hotels, restaurants, shops etc would go out of business? How much money would the boy scouts lose by not filling the parking lot where everyone pays $10-$20 per game to park? The residual effects are difficult to imagine. And that is in Eugene....not in State College, PA which is like 3 hours away from anything.

This isn't to say that the program/school shouldn't pay in one form or another (ie no televised games at home or some other creative discipline) but the death penalty does nothing. And let's be honest, the school has already paid quite a bit in terms of bad publicity and will probably lose hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of lawsuits and such. This pales in comparisons to the victims and monetary compensation doesn't make what happened to them any easier, but the school will pay....dearly.

I understand there will be side effects for those that had nothing to do with the scandal, but I hardly think that the big wigs at penn state get the severity of all this. They aren't even willing to pull down the paterno statue yet, and there are people outside protecting it. If they're doing that for a statue for POS coach who knowingly let this happen, who and what else are they protecting, and to what extent. It sucks for those that aren't involved, believe me I get that, but the only way for the people there to get a clue about how badly they've screwed up is to clean house and destroy that school.

Now, if the NCAA does give the death penalty, who are people going to blame for mom and pop losing their store, the NCAA or the people involved in all this? Of people say the NCAA, that's the wrong answer, because this is something that never should've gone this far if it weren't for a school trying to protect nothing but it's image.

Everything that you've posted as punishment has been an overreaction. Let the authorities do their job in handing out punishment to those involved in the coverup and make the NCAA stay out it for the most part. There's no real need for the death penalty. Penn State should pay, in perpetuity, any bowl revenue and a percentage of football revenue to organizations that help those affected by child abuse.

[Elduderino]

With residual effects of this there is always going to be someone who wasn't involved in any way that is gonna get screwed over. Not saying I'm for or against death penalty but no matter the decision someone won't be happy.

I liken it to when someone goes to jail. A father could commit a crime and his kids who were not involved in any way are going to be affected by his sentence but just because it hurts those kids doesn't mean due justice should not be served against their father

I think this is a very rational counterpoint

This is such a difficult topic because we all understand the desire to see those responsible punished. It has become impossible to ignore that protection of the football program was the pretense under which this cover-up took place.

As I've stated, I'm personally against killing the program. I agree with Duck24, the amount of "justice" the Death Penalty would bring, would pale in comparison to the damage it would levy. Certainly hard to fault those who feel differently, though.

[Duck24]

With residual effects of this there is always going to be someone who wasn't involved in any way that is gonna get screwed over. Not saying I'm for or against death penalty but no matter the decision someone won't be happy.

I liken it to when someone goes to jail. A father could commit a crime and his kids who were not involved in any way are going to be affected by his sentence but just because it hurts those kids doesn't mean due justice should not be served against their father

I think this is a very rational counterpoint

This is such a difficult topic because we all understand the desire to see those responsible punished. It has become impossible to ignore that protection of the football program was the pretense under which this cover-up took place.

As I've stated, I'm personally against killing the program. I agree with Duck24, the amount of "justice" the Death Penalty would bring, would pale in comparison to the damage it would levy. Certainly hard to fault those who feel differently, though.

Agreed that is a great comparison and I agree with what you are saying in that example. But a family being ruined because of a fathers choice to commit a crime is different than the entire economy of a city being destroyed. I like the idea that someone else posted about a percentage of bowl earnings or other revenues going towards charities/support groups for victims. Hit the program where it hurts...in the wallet.

[squintsdd]

It effects those that weren't involved, but in a case like this how do you determine who was and wasn't involved? Who would've ever thought Paterno was apart of this? obviously the kids lose out for the crimes of others, but everybody knows that there are still people at PSU that were invovled with all this that are keeping quiet so they, or somebody else, won't be implicated. The only way to know that you're punishing those involved is to punish the entire school.

Isn't that the same argument that was used to justify Japanese internment camps during WWII?

We're hardly throwing anybody into any camps in this case. Your comparison is way off

By punishing everyone with the death penalty or any other severe form of sanctions, you ruin the lives of everyone who didn't have to do anything with it. You put the Mom & Pop store in State College out of business as they are probably dependent upon the influx of visitors during football season. You put the Assistant Coach who wasn't even around when all of this went down out of a job. You put all of the popcorn/soda vendors out of a job, the grounds crew, the local radio guys etc. You would decimate that entire economy of that city/county. So while the internment camp comment is off base in one sense, it works in another. You are ruining the lives of anyone associated with the football program or who is dependent on the program.

To make it hit home a little more, imagine if this happened at U of O and a death penalty was given. How many hotels, restaurants, shops etc would go out of business? How much money would the boy scouts lose by not filling the parking lot where everyone pays $10-$20 per game to park? The residual effects are difficult to imagine. And that is in Eugene....not in State College, PA which is like 3 hours away from anything.

This isn't to say that the program/school shouldn't pay in one form or another (ie no televised games at home or some other creative discipline) but the death penalty does nothing. And let's be honest, the school has already paid quite a bit in terms of bad publicity and will probably lose hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of lawsuits and such. This pales in comparisons to the victims and monetary compensation doesn't make what happened to them any easier, but the school will pay....dearly.

I understand there will be side effects for those that had nothing to do with the scandal, but I hardly think that the big wigs at penn state get the severity of all this. They aren't even willing to pull down the paterno statue yet, and there are people outside protecting it. If they're doing that for a statue for POS coach who knowingly let this happen, who and what else are they protecting, and to what extent. It sucks for those that aren't involved, believe me I get that, but the only way for the people there to get a clue about how badly they've screwed up is to clean house and destroy that school.

Now, if the NCAA does give the death penalty, who are people going to blame for mom and pop losing their store, the NCAA or the people involved in all this? Of people say the NCAA, that's the wrong answer, because this is something that never should've gone this far if it weren't for a school trying to protect nothing but it's image.

Everything that you've posted as punishment has been an overreaction. Let the authorities do their job in handing out punishment to those involved in the coverup and make the NCAA stay out it for the most part. There's no real need for the death penalty. Penn State should pay, in perpetuity, any bowl revenue and a percentage of football revenue to organizations that help those affected by child abuse.

You really think there's an overreaction to a program that knowingly allowed a grown man to rape innocent kids? Please don't tell me you're out protecting that statue

[greenyellow]

I can fully understand why people are out there protecting the statue. They don't want it vandalized with hateful and disgusting things. Are they right to keep supporting JoePa? Probably not after what has come to light, but it's about what I expect from college kids. Right now, the things that are coming down the pipeline from the state and local authorities, plus the Board of Trustees, encourages me that this case will no longer be swept under the rug and restitution will be made to remove the stains caused by the inaction of a few men.

I think that any major penalty that the NCAA (death penalty, bowl bans, TV bans) is irrational, emotional thinking that more punishments will help the situation. I think as long as the school imposes some sort of punishment on itself that helps bring awareness to child abuse and a way to increase oversight of all athletics, then they've done enough in my eyes to rectify the situation.

[Duck07]

Does someone want to tell me where it is written that schools have a right to play football?

What does a school have to do in order to receive a football moratorium?

Anyone else believe that had this happened at a less prestigious school the penalty would have been more severe, like say Marshall?

Or is the entire argument the same for the wall street bailouts, this school is just too big to fail?

[Autzenoise]

Among the penalties I appreciate that they had to vacate all wins from 1998 forward. That means that Paterno will not be recognized with the win title, or even be close now. He didn't deserve to be recognized like that having made so many children go through the atrocities that they did.

[lukeyrid13]

Among the penalties I appreciate that they had to vacate all wins from 1998 forward. That means that Paterno will not be recognized with the win title, or even be close now. He didn't deserve to be recognized like that having made so many children go through the atrocities that they did.

Plus he didn't even 'coach' the last 5 years at least. When he's been injured or frail he's coached from the coaches box, except for the fact that he doesn't even wear a headset or have any connection whatsoever to the players on the field. He was just stealing money from PSU these last few years as a figure head anyways

[wheaton4prez]

We're hardly throwing anybody into any camps in this case. Your comparison is way off

In what way is the comparison of justifications off at all?

Both are cases of negatively affecting innocent people for crimes they didn't commit in order to theoretically punish someone who is guilty.

I liken it to when someone goes to jail. A father could commit a crime and his kids who were not involved in any way are going to be affected by his sentence but just because it hurts those kids doesn't mean due justice should not be served against their father

True. However, punishing people (the entire program) for crimes they did not commit is not an example of due justice.

Everything that you've posted as punishment has been an overreaction. Let the authorities do their job in handing out punishment to those involved in the coverup and make the NCAA stay out it for the most part. There's no real need for the death penalty. Penn State should pay, in perpetuity, any bowl revenue and a percentage of football revenue to organizations that help those affected by child abuse.

Exactly. This is a job for the police. The sport of football has nothing to do with it. Apart from a few individuals, Penn State has nothing to do with it.

Banning football at Penn State over this makes as little sense as closing a freeway because some guy drove drunk on it.

If Penn State wants to address their image issue by donating proceeds to anti child abuse organizations, I think that would be a noble and worthwhile gesture. However, it becomes meaningless if they are forced to do it.

You really think there's an overreaction to a program that knowingly allowed a grown man to rape innocent kids?

Yes. An overreaction would be acting as if the entire program had something to do with it and punishing innocent people for crimes that they did not commit.

Do you really think that not being able to watch Penn State football is an appropriate punishment for the crime that was committed?

What does a school have to do in order to receive a football moratorium?

Since the entire school did not commit this crime, why should they all be punished? What is wrong with punishing those involved as we do in every other criminal prosecution?

And why is this a football issue? The crime wasn't committed to gain a football advantage.