dd10snoop28 wrote:So they broke the rules. That being said, the rules are nonsensical.
It's deceitful and violates any basic notion of Sportsmanship, that isn't nonsensical.
If there is film readily available where you are able to study the other's teams' signals, then creating a rule disallowing a team from personally filming the other team's sideline is nonsensical.
Dumb rule. Either you should be able to study the opposing team's signal or you shouldn't. The latter is also silly since that has been part of strategy of sports since the beginning of time.
It's not a "dumb rule." It is a simple rule. It's dumb to break a simple rule, especially if the same result can allegedly be gained by not breaking the rule.
(FYI, I don't actually think the same competitive advantage can actually be gained without breaking the rule, hence why Harbaugh cheated.)
dd10snoop28 wrote:So they broke the rules. That being said, the rules are nonsensical.
It's deceitful and violates any basic notion of Sportsmanship, that isn't nonsensical.
If there is film readily available where you are able to study the other's teams' signals, then creating a rule disallowing a team from personally filming the other team's sideline is nonsensical.
Dumb rule. Either you should be able to study the opposing team's signal or you shouldn't. The latter is also silly since that has been part of strategy of sports since the beginning of time.
If there's film readily available that allows you to study the other teams' signals, then why were they sending people to the games to do it? I don't doubt that you catch glimpses in some film or TV, but I imagine to be able to decipher them, you need to be able to study a large sample of the plays to catch tendencies. There probably isn't enough of a sample from the film and TV to decode the signals accurately enough, hence why they sent people to the games. Ultimately, college just needs to move over the helmet communication. It's not realistic to expect a team to change their signals every single game week. There's already limited time with the athletes, and it's not as easy as just saying here are our new signals this week.
It's clear they broke rules and seems likely that they took something a lot of schools do, signal stealing, to another level. I just don't know I agree that this shows they're dirty rotten scoundrels, or should result in the kinds of punishments that would really make an impact: postseason ban, long-term Harbaugh suspension, major scholarship reduction, etc. That's where there's a debate worth having.
I'd say a postseason ban would be a fitting punishment. Cheating is cheating, and this is pretty high-level stuff in terms of gaining an unwarranted competitive advantage.
Might be other teams doing it, but Michigan is the one that got caught. Make the punishment fit the crime and fewer others will be so inclined to break the rules.
Suspending the coach doesn't seem fitting given how this is an institutional issue -- also, suspending Harbaugh wouldn't likely be a punishment to the university. Neither would scholarship reductions (for a big school, anyway) in the era of NIL. The postseason is where the rubber meets the road and where schools make big money. That's the pressure point.
dd10snoop28 wrote:So they broke the rules. That being said, the rules are nonsensical.
It's deceitful and violates any basic notion of Sportsmanship, that isn't nonsensical.
If there is film readily available where you are able to study the other's teams' signals, then creating a rule disallowing a team from personally filming the other team's sideline is nonsensical.
Dumb rule. Either you should be able to study the opposing team's signal or you shouldn't. The latter is also silly since that has been part of strategy of sports since the beginning of time.
If there's film readily available that allows you to study the other teams' signals, then why were they sending people to the games to do it? I don't doubt that you catch glimpses in some film or TV, but I imagine to be able to decipher them, you need to be able to study a large sample of the plays to catch tendencies. There probably isn't enough of a sample from the film and TV to decode the signals accurately enough, hence why they sent people to the games. Ultimately, college just needs to move over the helmet communication. It's not realistic to expect a team to change their signals every single game week. There's already limited time with the athletes, and it's not as easy as just saying here are our new signals this week.
I have no idea how the film world works, but I just have a hard time believing that the big-teams don't have film that shows the sideline (maybe in a zoomed out form??) and the signals coming from there. Like there is media, universities, networks, and other people that have film from the game....
Here's a question.... if Michigan purchases film from ESPN, is that a violation of the rules? Based on how it reads, the answer is no. Thus, why it is a dumb rule.
If the moral boundary being crossed is "stealing signs" then, again, that's ridiculous. Good coaches tell their players to study the opponent to see if you can catch any "tells" from their teams.... this happens even at the youth level. The discussions seems to circle around the "extent" that a team goes to steal signs....
Last edited by dd10snoop28 on Fri Oct 27, 2023 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tray Dub wrote:It's clear they broke rules and seems likely that they took something a lot of schools do, signal stealing, to another level. I just don't know I agree that this shows they're dirty rotten scoundrels, or should result in the kinds of punishments that would really make an impact: postseason ban, long-term Harbaugh suspension, major scholarship reduction, etc. That's where there's a debate worth having.
You don't believe they're playing dirty? The fact that Harbaugh was already suspended several games THIS year for recruiting violations, and now he so quickly is willing to say "meh, let's pay someone to steal signs for us" doesn't prove to you that they're dirty?
Tray Dub wrote:It's clear they broke rules and seems likely that they took something a lot of schools do, signal stealing, to another level. I just don't know I agree that this shows they're dirty rotten scoundrels, or should result in the kinds of punishments that would really make an impact: postseason ban, long-term Harbaugh suspension, major scholarship reduction, etc. That's where there's a debate worth having.
dd10snoop28 wrote:So they broke the rules. That being said, the rules are nonsensical.
It's deceitful and violates any basic notion of Sportsmanship, that isn't nonsensical.
If there is film readily available where you are able to study the other's teams' signals, then creating a rule disallowing a team from personally filming the other team's sideline is nonsensical.
Dumb rule. Either you should be able to study the opposing team's signal or you shouldn't. The latter is also silly since that has been part of strategy of sports since the beginning of time.
If there's film readily available that allows you to study the other teams' signals, then why were they sending people to the games to do it? I don't doubt that you catch glimpses in some film or TV, but I imagine to be able to decipher them, you need to be able to study a large sample of the plays to catch tendencies. There probably isn't enough of a sample from the film and TV to decode the signals accurately enough, hence why they sent people to the games. Ultimately, college just needs to move over the helmet communication. It's not realistic to expect a team to change their signals every single game week. There's already limited time with the athletes, and it's not as easy as just saying here are our new signals this week.
I have no idea how the film world works, but I just have a hard time believing that the big-teams don't have film that shows the sideline (maybe in a zoomed out form??) and the signals coming from there. Like there is media, universities, networks, and other people that have film from the game....
Here's a question.... if Michigan purchases film from ESPN, is that a violation of the rules? Based on how it reads, the answer is no. Thus, why it is a dumb rule.
If the moral boundary being crossed is "stealing signs" then, again, that's ridiculous. Good coaches tell their players to study the opponent to see if you can catch any "tells" from their teams.... this happens even at the youth level. The discussions seems to circle around the "extent" that a team goes to steal signs....
Teams generally share game film. But I don’t think it shows clear view of the sideline. It’s usually from the box, so you probably don’t get a good look at any hand signals being used to communicate. That said, this whole thing would be a moot point if the stupid NCAA allowed a communication devise in one players helmet on O and D. The NCAA dumb rules opened the door for this behavior
dd10snoop28 wrote:So they broke the rules. That being said, the rules are nonsensical.
It's deceitful and violates any basic notion of Sportsmanship, that isn't nonsensical.
If there is film readily available where you are able to study the other's teams' signals, then creating a rule disallowing a team from personally filming the other team's sideline is nonsensical.
Dumb rule. Either you should be able to study the opposing team's signal or you shouldn't. The latter is also silly since that has been part of strategy of sports since the beginning of time.
If there's film readily available that allows you to study the other teams' signals, then why were they sending people to the games to do it? I don't doubt that you catch glimpses in some film or TV, but I imagine to be able to decipher them, you need to be able to study a large sample of the plays to catch tendencies. There probably isn't enough of a sample from the film and TV to decode the signals accurately enough, hence why they sent people to the games. Ultimately, college just needs to move over the helmet communication. It's not realistic to expect a team to change their signals every single game week. There's already limited time with the athletes, and it's not as easy as just saying here are our new signals this week.
I have no idea how the film world works, but I just have a hard time believing that the big-teams don't have film that shows the sideline (maybe in a zoomed out form??) and the signals coming from there. Like there is media, universities, networks, and other people that have film from the game....
Here's a question.... if Michigan purchases film from ESPN, is that a violation of the rules? Based on how it reads, the answer is no. Thus, why it is a dumb rule.
If the moral boundary being crossed is "stealing signs" then, again, that's ridiculous. Good coaches tell their players to study the opponent to see if you can catch any "tells" from their teams.... this happens even at the youth level. The discussions seems to circle around the "extent" that a team goes to steal signs....
There have been numerous coaches in the last few days saying that what you're saying is just not true and what Michigan is accused of doing doesn't happen every day and does cross the line.
dd10snoop28 wrote:So they broke the rules. That being said, the rules are nonsensical.
It's deceitful and violates any basic notion of Sportsmanship, that isn't nonsensical.
If there is film readily available where you are able to study the other's teams' signals, then creating a rule disallowing a team from personally filming the other team's sideline is nonsensical.
Dumb rule. Either you should be able to study the opposing team's signal or you shouldn't. The latter is also silly since that has been part of strategy of sports since the beginning of time.
If there's film readily available that allows you to study the other teams' signals, then why were they sending people to the games to do it? I don't doubt that you catch glimpses in some film or TV, but I imagine to be able to decipher them, you need to be able to study a large sample of the plays to catch tendencies. There probably isn't enough of a sample from the film and TV to decode the signals accurately enough, hence why they sent people to the games. Ultimately, college just needs to move over the helmet communication. It's not realistic to expect a team to change their signals every single game week. There's already limited time with the athletes, and it's not as easy as just saying here are our new signals this week.
I have no idea how the film world works, but I just have a hard time believing that the big-teams don't have film that shows the sideline (maybe in a zoomed out form??) and the signals coming from there. Like there is media, universities, networks, and other people that have film from the game....
Here's a question.... if Michigan purchases film from ESPN, is that a violation of the rules? Based on how it reads, the answer is no. Thus, why it is a dumb rule.
If the moral boundary being crossed is "stealing signs" then, again, that's ridiculous. Good coaches tell their players to study the opponent to see if you can catch any "tells" from their teams.... this happens even at the youth level. The discussions seems to circle around the "extent" that a team goes to steal signs....
There have been numerous coaches in the last few days saying that what you're saying is just not true and what Michigan is accused of doing doesn't happen every day and does cross the line.
The *extent* of stealing signs is the question. The word "stealing" is not a good word in all circumstances. Here is a hypothetical: it's a youth baseball tournament. The coach tells his team to watch the game of the upcoming opponent to study the other team. "Studying the other team" does not exclude looking at the signs of the other team....so if one of the players comes up and says "hey coach, I think I figured out the sign for how to steal" then, to me, that's a legit part of the game. Shouldn't be called "Stealing" in that case.
Interesting conversation. Not too surprised that some people feel that not following the rules AND getting caught is no big deal. Because you know everyone is doing it and, if not, they should.
Fun Fact and/or Strange Coincidence: Jim Harbaugh's worst season as a head coach happened to be the one where no fans were allowed in the stands. He went 2-4.
The latest rumors regarding Manifesto U. involves them somehow accessing Ohio State practice footage through a password breach. As far as I know, this rumor is limited to message boards, but it certainly can't be discounted. Keep in mind, Michigan's corrupt spy network was outed by a person on a message board over a year ago. They detailed how Michigan was paying for the tickets, lodging, etc. of people to film closeup views of coaches on the sideline. Nobody seemed to pay much attention to it at the time...turns out that it was all true.
We got NCAA investigators in Ann Arbor interviewing people about this brazen, sprawling cheating system. The FBI is also in Ann Arbor, conducting their investigation into alleged computer crimes at Schembechler Hall. This probe involves former Michigan football co-offensive coordinator Matt Weiss, who was fired in January. Maybe the FBI boys should swing by the opponent locker room and do a quick surveillance sweep? If Jimbo hasn't already cleaned it up, what are the odds they might come across a few hidden cameras and listening devices? It would be nice if they could find some excuse to give Jim's house a comb through as well. What are the odds another manifesto would be uncovered? The University of Michigan already has a section of their library dedicated to the "Ted Kaczynski Papers" (Unabomber). Rounding it out with "Jim Harbaugh: Mein Kampf" and "Connor Stalions: Michigan Manifesto" would be a nice touch.
Fun Fact and/or Strange Coincidence: Jim Harbaugh's worst season as a head coach happened to be the one where no fans were allowed in the stands. He went 2-4.
The latest rumors regarding Manifesto U. involves them somehow accessing Ohio State practice footage through a password breach. As far as I know, this rumor is limited to message boards, but it certainly can't be discounted. Keep in mind, Michigan's corrupt spy network was outed by a person on a message board over a year ago. They detailed how Michigan was paying for the tickets, lodging, etc. of people to film closeup views of coaches on the sideline. Nobody seemed to pay much attention to it at the time...turns out that it was all true.
We got NCAA investigators in Ann Arbor interviewing people about this brazen, sprawling cheating system. The FBI is also in Ann Arbor, conducting their investigation into alleged computer crimes at Schembechler Hall. This probe involves former Michigan football co-offensive coordinator Matt Weiss, who was fired in January. Maybe the FBI boys should swing by the opponent locker room and do a quick surveillance sweep? If Jimbo hasn't already cleaned it up, what are the odds they might come across a few hidden cameras and listening devices? It would be nice if they could find some excuse to give Jim's house a comb through as well. What are the odds another manifesto would be uncovered? The University of Michigan already has a section of their library dedicated to the "Ted Kaczynski Papers" (Unabomber). Rounding it out with "Jim Harbaugh: Mein Kampf" and "Connor Stalions: Michigan Manifesto" would be a nice touch.
Another Fun Fact and/or Strange Coincidence: Jim Harbaugh is 2-7 in bowl games, you know, when most teams change signs during their month-long prep.
My issue is Harbaugh continues to lie about everything he does wrong. Guy thinks he’s above everything, and doesn’t need to be honest. In no world does the HC not know a staffer is out recording other teams signs. Unless he expects us to all believe a guy that makes $50k a year, paid his own way to fly and stay at 35 games, on his own dime. And what, the HC never asked how they figured out the signs so fast. Dude is the worst.
