Cheating *ss Michigan

[StevensTechU]

The NCAA is forced to be thorough. They won't have any investigation done by the end of 2024, let alone immediately. The Big Ten is a different story, and their commissioner could* punish them today if he had the balls to. I still don't think any league will throw its own under the bus.

[buckmarkduck]

So even if Harbaugh gets in trouble, he will just jump to the NFL. Cheating for a college HC who is successful, isn’t a big deal. It only screws everyone under him.

[squintsdd]

So even if Harbaugh gets in trouble, he will just jump to the NFL. Cheating for a college HC who is successful, isn’t a big deal. It only screws everyone under him.

Absolutely true, which is what coaches should be pitching to every recruit that has currently committed to Michigan.

[pudgejeff]

The NCAA is forced to be thorough. They won't have any investigation done by the end of 2024, let alone immediately. The Big Ten is a different story, and their commissioner could* punish them today if he had the balls to. I still don't think any league will throw its own under the bus.

The big question for the Big 10 is, if the NCAA rules them ineligble later on do they require repayment of all the Postseason rewards the conference received. If they worry about that, could behoove them to not allow Michigan to be their representative as it would be throwing the entire conference under the bus.

[StevensTechU]

The latest is that the Big Ten has given Michigan notice that they are being considered for disciplinary action.

The narrative around it is that it will be more symbolic than anything, to try to relieve some public pressure. Media folks are saying that Michigan will sue no matter what, which would mean something like a Harbaugh suspension would be punted until it's resolved in court.

My own narrative is that Michigan has really shown itself to be a bunch of POSs. The facts are blatantly obvious that Michigan broke a rule by filming opponents; it's not even up for debate. So you have to have a lot of cognitive dissonance to tell yourself that it was a rogue staffer who makes $55k annually who's paying for all this and that the defensive coach who's ear he's in has no idea, nor does the head coach. So hearing the coaches, President, and fanbase deny and excuse the program is just wild to me. You got caught, now take your lumps and stop saying it's a conspiracy.

[squintsdd]

The latest is that the Big Ten has given Michigan notice that they are being considered for disciplinary action.

The narrative around it is that it will be more symbolic than anything, to try to relieve some public pressure. Media folks are saying that Michigan will sue no matter what, which would mean something like a Harbaugh suspension would be punted until it's resolved in court.

My own narrative is that Michigan has really shown itself to be a bunch of POSs. The facts are blatantly obvious that Michigan broke a rule by filming opponents; it's not even up for debate. So you have to have a lot of cognitive dissonance to tell yourself that it was a rogue staffer who makes $55k annually who's paying for all this and that the defensive coach who's ear he's in has no idea, nor does the head coach. So hearing the coaches, President, and fanbase deny and excuse the program is just wild to me. You got caught, now take your lumps and stop saying it's a conspiracy.

I also read that the only punishment that is likely to happen is that Harbaugh gets suspended. The B1G won't give them a post season ban because they'll lose money, and the ncaa has no teeth

[Phalanx]

Interesting read in the athletic yesterday interviewing 50 fbs coaches about how serious they see this issue.

One defensive assistant at a Big 12 school who specialized in legal signal stealing at a previous job insists the difference between hunting for hints in TV copy and having a full game of footage you’ve filmed is massive. The coach believes it’s worth several touchdowns on both offense and defense if Michigan had a reliable system in place to relay the intel to coordinators during games.

“I mean, you’re shooting fish in a barrel,” the defensive coach said. “If I was able to do what Michigan was doing, that would be the difference between big-time winning and losing. If you filmed all the signals from a game, you’d take that and put it into the film system and match up the play-by-play with what the opponent is running. And then, I mean, it’s over. Having a steady film of the signals during a game would be mind-blowing.

“To me, it would be the same as going and filming somebody’s practice. If I was on the Michigan staff and was part of that operation, I would be very uncomfortable using that info. To me, that’s a big moral line in the sand that was crossed.”

It's clear based on the reactions from coaches that this is clearly a bigger issue than some on here seem to think. Points to what I was saying around sample sizes, and being able to pull every signal, as opposed to some random signals you catch on a broadcast to piece together. Also, the B1G coaches met with the B1G commissioner yesterday urging him to punish Michigan. This isn't commonplace, and is clearly a pretty big deal. Let's see if the NCAA has the balls to keep them out of the playoffs. I don't see any scenario where they should be allowed to participate in the playoff this season. It should also end with Harbaugh gone, and potential sanctions for Michigan for multiple years.

I'm quite sure I don't have all the info here, but so far, this is a flimsy case, full of over-the-top reactions to what seems to amount to normal college football hijinks. Nothing here appears to have been done with special info not available to anyone attending a game - in fact, that is the meat of the accusation: they attended some games. I keep waiting to hear about hidden cameras in the locker room or playbooks being stolen, and so far I have seen nothing of that sort. Bowl bans and firings? Really? It feels very much like people just don't like Michigan and Harbaugh and so they want to crucify them. An anonymous quote talking about 'multiple touchdown advantages' is not evidence, nor is stories of other teams knowing they were sign-stealing, and so disguising their signs. That's a normal reaction to suspected sign stealing. This stuff has been going on for literal decades - probably over a century.

Actually, these reactions sound to me exactly like what Beaver and Husky fans were saying when the stuff about Lache Seastrunk came out. Oregon deserved the death penalty, everyone should be fired, etc. etc. In that case, I think Oregon got punished just to satisfy the wailing and gnashing of teeth, rather than for any actual cheating that was going on. I don't think the dude ever even played a down for Oregon.

Harbaugh seems like a bit of a shyster, and the embarrassment he is suffering from being caught is likely well-deserved, but I don't think he should be blackballed out of college football over this. It seems like teams should learn to change up their signs.

[dd10snoop28]

Interesting read in the athletic yesterday interviewing 50 fbs coaches about how serious they see this issue.

One defensive assistant at a Big 12 school who specialized in legal signal stealing at a previous job insists the difference between hunting for hints in TV copy and having a full game of footage you’ve filmed is massive. The coach believes it’s worth several touchdowns on both offense and defense if Michigan had a reliable system in place to relay the intel to coordinators during games.

“I mean, you’re shooting fish in a barrel,” the defensive coach said. “If I was able to do what Michigan was doing, that would be the difference between big-time winning and losing. If you filmed all the signals from a game, you’d take that and put it into the film system and match up the play-by-play with what the opponent is running. And then, I mean, it’s over. Having a steady film of the signals during a game would be mind-blowing.

“To me, it would be the same as going and filming somebody’s practice. If I was on the Michigan staff and was part of that operation, I would be very uncomfortable using that info. To me, that’s a big moral line in the sand that was crossed.”

It's clear based on the reactions from coaches that this is clearly a bigger issue than some on here seem to think. Points to what I was saying around sample sizes, and being able to pull every signal, as opposed to some random signals you catch on a broadcast to piece together. Also, the B1G coaches met with the B1G commissioner yesterday urging him to punish Michigan. This isn't commonplace, and is clearly a pretty big deal. Let's see if the NCAA has the balls to keep them out of the playoffs. I don't see any scenario where they should be allowed to participate in the playoff this season. It should also end with Harbaugh gone, and potential sanctions for Michigan for multiple years.

I'm quite sure I don't have all the info here, but so far, this is a flimsy case, full of over-the-top reactions to what seems to amount to normal college football hijinks. Nothing here appears to have been done with special info not available to anyone attending a game - in fact, that is the meat of the accusation: they attended some games. I keep waiting to hear about hidden cameras in the locker room or playbooks being stolen, and so far I have seen nothing of that sort. Bowl bans and firings? Really? It feels very much like people just don't like Michigan and Harbaugh and so they want to crucify them. An anonymous quote talking about 'multiple touchdown advantages' is not evidence, nor is stories of other teams knowing they were sign-stealing, and so disguising their signs. That's a normal reaction to suspected sign stealing. This stuff has been going on for literal decades - probably over a century.

Actually, these reactions sound to me exactly like what Beaver and Husky fans were saying when the stuff about Lache Seastrunk came out. Oregon deserved the death penalty, everyone should be fired, etc. etc. In that case, I think Oregon got punished just to satisfy the wailing and gnashing of teeth, rather than for any actual cheating that was going on. I don't think the dude ever even played a down for Oregon.

Harbaugh seems like a bit of a shyster, and the embarrassment he is suffering from being caught is likely well-deserved, but I don't think he should be blackballed out of college football over this. It seems like teams should learn to change up their signs.

Some good points in here.

I still find it unbelievable that a team wouldn't be able to find film from third-parties that wouldn't show the sideline of an upcoming opponent.

If Oregon asks ESPN for game film from one of their broadcasts that includes an angle of the sideline, is that a violation? Absolutely not, but it accomplishes the same thing as having a staff attend the game of an upcoming opponent and film the opposing sideline.

Most importantly, most of what they have done has been done in the public view, and is likely information that is largely available to other college teams.....so what huge advantage is being gained?

Harbaugh is a kook, I agree, so I'm not surprised by any of this.

[droop10]

Interesting read in the athletic yesterday interviewing 50 fbs coaches about how serious they see this issue.

One defensive assistant at a Big 12 school who specialized in legal signal stealing at a previous job insists the difference between hunting for hints in TV copy and having a full game of footage you’ve filmed is massive. The coach believes it’s worth several touchdowns on both offense and defense if Michigan had a reliable system in place to relay the intel to coordinators during games.

“I mean, you’re shooting fish in a barrel,” the defensive coach said. “If I was able to do what Michigan was doing, that would be the difference between big-time winning and losing. If you filmed all the signals from a game, you’d take that and put it into the film system and match up the play-by-play with what the opponent is running. And then, I mean, it’s over. Having a steady film of the signals during a game would be mind-blowing.

“To me, it would be the same as going and filming somebody’s practice. If I was on the Michigan staff and was part of that operation, I would be very uncomfortable using that info. To me, that’s a big moral line in the sand that was crossed.”

It's clear based on the reactions from coaches that this is clearly a bigger issue than some on here seem to think. Points to what I was saying around sample sizes, and being able to pull every signal, as opposed to some random signals you catch on a broadcast to piece together. Also, the B1G coaches met with the B1G commissioner yesterday urging him to punish Michigan. This isn't commonplace, and is clearly a pretty big deal. Let's see if the NCAA has the balls to keep them out of the playoffs. I don't see any scenario where they should be allowed to participate in the playoff this season. It should also end with Harbaugh gone, and potential sanctions for Michigan for multiple years.

I'm quite sure I don't have all the info here, but so far, this is a flimsy case, full of over-the-top reactions to what seems to amount to normal college football hijinks. Nothing here appears to have been done with special info not available to anyone attending a game - in fact, that is the meat of the accusation: they attended some games. I keep waiting to hear about hidden cameras in the locker room or playbooks being stolen, and so far I have seen nothing of that sort. Bowl bans and firings? Really? It feels very much like people just don't like Michigan and Harbaugh and so they want to crucify them. An anonymous quote talking about 'multiple touchdown advantages' is not evidence, nor is stories of other teams knowing they were sign-stealing, and so disguising their signs. That's a normal reaction to suspected sign stealing. This stuff has been going on for literal decades - probably over a century.

Actually, these reactions sound to me exactly like what Beaver and Husky fans were saying when the stuff about Lache Seastrunk came out. Oregon deserved the death penalty, everyone should be fired, etc. etc. In that case, I think Oregon got punished just to satisfy the wailing and gnashing of teeth, rather than for any actual cheating that was going on. I don't think the dude ever even played a down for Oregon.

Harbaugh seems like a bit of a shyster, and the embarrassment he is suffering from being caught is likely well-deserved, but I don't think he should be blackballed out of college football over this. It seems like teams should learn to change up their signs.

There is a difference between stealing signs in game, which isn't as easy as people would imagine. You have to figure out who the person is that's actually giving the signs, then align the signs with the play. It's a lot to do in the span of a game, and you might luck out and figure out a couple of plays, but you won't have essentially the entire playbook. What Michigan did was attend games to film the people giving signs on the sideline, so they could spend the week analyzing each of the guys giving signs, align them with the play that was called, and eventually figure out what each sign is. The film schools are given isn't going to have direct shots at the signs being given every play. It's basic machine learning...the inputs and the higher the sample size, the more accurate your model will be able to predict what happens. Being able to record and watch it back multiple times is going to be a big advantage over someone just watching in the crowd, as well.

"Just change the signs" sounds good in theory, but with limited time with athletes each week, it's not realistic to expect to add to that teaching numerous new signs to the players. The obvious fix is helmet communication. What Michigan did is obviously going to provide an obvious competitive advantage. A lot easier to scheme for a team and call the right plays, when you can rule out play action, and know if it's a run or pass every play.

[Phalanx]

"Just change the signs" sounds good in theory, but with limited time with athletes each week, it's not realistic to expect to add to that teaching numerous new signs to the players. The obvious fix is helmet communication. What Michigan did is obviously going to provide an obvious competitive advantage. A lot easier to scheme for a team and call the right plays, when you can rule out play action, and know if it's a run or pass every play.

Well, that's your story, but I don't happen to agree. I think if a team wants to send out esoteric signals, the burden is on them to disguise the signals. Making a rule that nobody is allowed to look at what is being done in plain sight seems very silly to me. As for the 'obvious competitive advantage', that is far from an established fact either. Do you have an example where they gained an obvious advantage? Since this story came out and everyone was made aware of the terrible-horrible-no-good-very-bad-sign-stealing scandal, Michigan was been winning their games by an average of about 40 points per game. Did they used to win them by 60 or something? I'd like to see some evidence for the thing you keep saying is 'obvious'.

In November 2019, Mario let analyst Prentice Gill walk instead of promoting him. Gill then immediately surfaced at Arizona State. Then, on November 23rd, Arizona State pulled off an upset victory over Oregon that nobody expected, and which ruined Oregon's chances for the playoffs in Justin Herbert's senior year. During that game, it was eerie how the Sun Devil defense seemed always to be in position to defend everything Oregon was doing. A rumor came out later that Gill had brought the Oregon playbook with him to Tempe, but no investigation was ever done to my knowledge, and the national gatekeepers were only too happy to exclude Oregon from a chance at the biggest games. That to me, seems like a much bigger deal than that a staffer attended some games and sat in the stands with his cell phone. I also note that an Arizona State assistant has been quoted in one of these stories about the Michigan scandal, being cited as an expert in sign stealing (Not Gill, who was fired for recruiting violations a little over a year after he was hired). Of all the schools to seek out for a quote on a story about Michigan, it is interesting that they get a guy from ASU to be their expert witness.

Earlier this year, Carlos Alacaraz's father was caught filming Novak Djokovic's practice sessions during the U.S. Open and the Alcaraz camp also admitted to doing the same at Wimbledon, where Alcaraz subsequently pulled off an amazing upset over Djokovic in the final - which was Djokovic's only Grand Slam loss this year. No investigation, just a blurb in the media about it and then everyone moved on.

I suspect these cases are largely dismissed for lack of any actual evidence of harm, and that is why I will not be surprised if the NCAA finds itself unable to fulfill everyone's wishes and lock Harbaugh up and throw away the key. Any decision they make will have to stand up in court, so they will need more evidence of something than has been provided here with anonymous quotes about the obvious effect of sitting next to Joe Lunchbucket in the stands at opponent's games.

[pezsez1]

That to me, seems like a much bigger deal than that a staffer attended some games and sat in the stands with his cell phone.

While I agree that should have been investigated, I disagree that a coach stealing the playbook for one team is worse than another coach orchestrating a massive (and illegal) sign-scouting operation involving all known teams on his schedule -- at least from the standpoint of gaining unfair competitive advantages.

[Phalanx]

That to me, seems like a much bigger deal than that a staffer attended some games and sat in the stands with his cell phone.

While I agree that should have been investigated, I disagree that a coach stealing the playbook for one team is worse than another coach orchestrating a massive (and illegal) sign-scouting operation involving all known teams on his schedule -- at least from the standpoint of gaining unfair competitive advantages.

Sorry, attending a game in order to view public signals along with 60,000 other fans and millions on T.V. is not the same as stealing a playbook and/or hiring a guy for the specific purpose of revealing inside info on an opposing team. Maybe ASU is guilty of that, and maybe it's all just a big coincidence, but if they are guilty, that is way worse than what is being described with Michigan.

[pezsez1]

Sorry, attending a game in order to view public signals

If only that's all that happened. There are no rules against sitting in the stands and simply viewing things.

To be clear, Michigan is accused of illegally recording signals of virtually all of its opponents over several seasons to gain unfair competitive advantages in nearly all of its games -- not just one.

[nogerO]

Ohio State has a checkered past as well. Urban Meyer I hope to hear "Baliff, whack his pee pee!" Harbaugh is a piece of work.

[Duck07]

Well, that's your story, but I don't happen to agree. I think if a team wants to send out esoteric signals, the burden is on them to disguise the signals. Making a rule that nobody is allowed to look at what is being done in plain sight seems very silly to me.

Your feelings don't trump an explicit rule though.