i'm going to have to call bullshit on locking the ASU OL coming out thread on the other guys forum. someone complained it was offensive, and the moderator apparently agreed, but despite having two extremely different viewpoints housed together in one thread (over a very controversial topic) i thought both sides were acting profoundly mature and respectful. if there were any personal attacks at all, i flat out missed them. you can say we got off-topic, sure, and that's fine, but there was no reason to lock anything based on the grounds given. i thought there were some viewpoints worth responding to, so on that note i'm moving it over here to this wonderfully off-topic thread.
lukeyrid13 said: People are vilified, mocked and persecuted if they are a person of faith . If they come out and state it publicly there is no fanfare and calls for being a hero, if anything it's the opposite(Tebow). I just find it curious that this one issue is put on such a pedestal ( from both opposing sides)
though i'm sure it's not how you intended it to come off, this sounds a lot like, 'well, it happens to us (people of faith), so who cares if it happens to another group?' which, ironically, is probably the most anti-christian viewpoint one could take.
re: tebow. there was anti-christian backlash over tim tebow. i won't sit here and say there wasn't. but that was hardly the cause of, or majority, of the criticism he took. tim tebow was (i think) the victim of the espn machine, who needed a white, professional quarterback to fawn over once brett favre hung it up (and now that tebow's out of the picture, you'll notice johnny manziel has stepped into the limelight...). this caused two things: tim tebow was EVERYWHERE, and backlash ensued. christians locked onto his faith, many sports fans started hating on the guy because of the amount of media attention he was getting for *really* no reason, and things began escalating. based on my facebook feed, stock full of individuals from both sides, a lot of people of faith took any attack on tim tebow as an attack on christianity, which only caused the situation to sour even more. there were legitimate attacks on his faith. like i said, i won't claim ignorance.
but consider russell wilson. he's an athlete who has referenced his faith in literally every interview he's ever given. he's talked more about god in his two-year nfl career than tebow ever did. but there's, like, zero russell wilson hate out there. why? he's actually good, and he doesn't have a microphone in his face at every turn. if tebow actually had professional talent, and espn didn't molest him the moment the broncos drafted him, nobody would care that he's a christian. outspoken winners with minimal coverage don't get hated on. tebow was neither a winner (in the pros), nor was his coverage minimal...
and, lastly, while there are people of faith who are harassed for their faith, i think it's kind of silly to equate that to the kind of harassment that the lgbt community receives, in no small (ironic) part for the reason that it's largely men of women of faith leading to said harassment. there's a paradox for you. and let's be fucking real for a moment. half my high school attended young life, or went to a youth group, or identified publicly as a christian. hell, i went to many of these functions myself, not because i am or was a believer, but because i wanted to hang out with my friends. it was a socially acceptable thing to do. now let's talk about how socially acceptable it's been over the years to identify as gay as a teenager without the fear of public ridicule (or much, much worse). there's a pre/post game prayer said before/after every high school football game ever played in this country. how many gay high school athletes do you think there are? probably a bunch. how many 'out' high school athletes do you think there are? probably a very, very small %. people of faith do get harassed, i won't argue with you on that, but let's not bend the means of logic and say it's the same thing. it ain't.
UOducksTK1 said: I hear there word "J*sus" and "G*d Damn" probably of a ratio of 30:1 compared to the word gay or faggot. I'm incredibly offended every day at work and, really, every I go in public. Yet my opinion doesn't get any media attention. Personally I think using name of the Creator and Conductor of this world in vein to be beyond offensive.
But again, no one cares. I see no fruit in cursing homosexuals or treating them any less than any other person. However, equally I don't understand the celebration of two people practicing sodomy. Why don't players in professional sports get lots of media for fornicating? How people have sex at home should not even scratch the surface of sports news.
i think you have the makings of a point in your first paragraph, though i would stop short of saying they're the same thing. if i use 'Geez christ' as an expression, there's every chance in the world i'm not directing anything at you, personally. you have a point in that you might still find it to be offensive, but i mean no offense to you as an individual, it's just that saying 'oh my god', or 'Geez', or (whatever) has gotten into the common vernacular for very secular reasons. on the other hand, if you call someone a faggot, it's REALLY hard to justify that you're not trying to go out of your way to attack them.
you're second paragraph is wrong from the get-go. people DO care. people care for the very reason i outlined in my original post over on the other guys' forum. athletes coming out aren't necessarily trying to get your or my attention. we're probably not the desired audience. the point tends to be empowerment, and taking away the stigma that a lot of people have in this country that there's something wrong with you if you identify a certain way. i mean, consider if you grew up feeling like you were a lesser human being for feelings you have no control over. look at suicide rates among teens alone who identify as lgbt. if you live through that, and finally get to a point where you might have a platform to help others (especially youth) to not feel ashamed for who they fucking are, you're not reaching out to people who "don't care." your reaching out to people who NEED to hear that. honestly, not to tell you how to live your life, but the next time you do hear a coming out story, i wouldn't roll my eyes in disgust/anger/annoyance, just take solace that some teenager may not take his own life because he heard the same story...
Phalanx said: Well, you are right that there is a divide. You appear, for instance, to think that people are born homosexual, and that is a belief that flies in the face of all kinds of data. In the real world, the one that isn't directed by people with a political agenda, homosexuality is a choice that people make and unmake all the time, and a behavior that goes against the common grain of humanity. It is a choice that will never be universally accepted because it defies nature. We can decide as a culture to accommodate this choice, but it will never be universally accepted. I guess in your mind, that means people will always be having press conferences to 'come out'. The practice grows tiresome, and achieves the opposite effect that you describe. If homosexuality was actually the 'identity' that you and other liberals try to frame it as, it would not be necessary to announce. I did not, for instance, have to make an announcement that I am left-handed.
no, you probably didn't. but you also don't have grown men and women fighting tooth and nail to pass or retain legislature to keep you from getting married because you're left handed.
first, the practice of publicly coming out only grows tiresome to you for the very same reasons i just told TK. does it achieve the opposite effect? do you have anything AT ALL to back that up?
second, this isn't my first rodeo. i'm not going to sit here and debate with you whether or not being gay is a choice. changing someone's mind over an issue like that is not exactly commonplace on the internet, so there's really no point in going down that road. i would, however, invite you to explore the topic a bit more on your own, as it appears the research you've put into it is somewhere between zilch and slim, and, if you can, in your spare time, provide some links for "all the data" that suggests being gay IS a choice, that would be peachy. because honestly i'm on vacation for the next week, and i'm going to have some time kill while the wife is at work, and i can't think of a more amusing time-killer to destroy publicly in front of all these nice folks.