Heat check

[pudgejeff]

I check the box score on Sabrina’s games. But people wanting them to get paid, how? It comes down to demand and viewership, which from the numbers it’s not there. The NBA has lost viewers in the US, but are propped up by overseas now. I don’t think China is watching the wnba.

I believe their numbers are on par or better than what MLS gets and they certainly don't receive the same kind of pay so there is that.

MLS revenue last year was about 2 billion, WNBA about 200 million. A lot more money to go around currently. The new tv deal should help that for the W come 2026, but the MLS has greater in person attendance propping it up significantly. As with most things, not all things are equal or simple comparisons. The greater the revenue, generally the greater share of profit there is to be distributed. Hopefully the W can parlay this success into better management, greater revenue and in turn higher salaries.

[TheDrake]

Where there is an ex-Duck I follow. Any sport! No Ducks no follow!

[StevensTechU]

I check the box score on Sabrina’s games. But people wanting them to get paid, how? It comes down to demand and viewership, which from the numbers it’s not there. The NBA has lost viewers in the US, but are propped up by overseas now. I don’t think China is watching the wnba.

I believe their numbers are on par or better than what MLS gets and they certainly don't receive the same kind of pay so there is that.

Interesting comparison. I would venture to say that WNBA players are more famous and marketable than MLS players. I can't name an MLS player outside that short guy in Miami. But that has a greater impact on endorsement money than player salary.

[Everythingsducky]

The WNBA runs on a loss, year over year, even with the NBA subsidizing it. There would be no WNBA without the NBA backing.

[buckmarkduck]

It’s interesting they are wearing shirt saying pay us what we are owed. Yet they lost $40 mill last year. Any other business in the country would shut its doors after continuing to lose that much money every year.

[StevensTechU]

It’s interesting they are wearing shirt saying pay us what we are owed. Yet they lost $40 mill last year. Any other business in the country would shut its doors after continuing to lose that much money every year.

I'm a business consultant and that's insanely wrong. Why do you think capital raising exists? If companies were profitable they wouldn't seek capital and if they were bad businesses then they wouldn't receive any. The WNBA fits the profile of almost any high growth business. It's when growth slows down that profitability becomes more valued.

[Phalanx]

It’s interesting they are wearing shirt saying pay us what we are owed. Yet they lost $40 mill last year. Any other business in the country would shut its doors after continuing to lose that much money every year.

I'm a business consultant and that's insanely wrong. Why do you think capital raising exists? If companies were profitable they wouldn't seek capital and if they were bad businesses then they wouldn't receive any. The WNBA fits the profile of almost any high growth business. It's when growth slows down that profitability becomes more valued.

Wow, and all this time I thought capital-raising existed for acquisitions, improvements to company infrastructure, research and development, etc. I had no idea it was actually for giving all existing employees a pay raise despite already running heavy deficits at the old pay rates. I'm so glad we have such amazing business acumen among us to clarify these things. Who do you do your consulting for, the government?

[Everythingsducky]

It’s interesting they are wearing shirt saying pay us what we are owed. Yet they lost $40 mill last year. Any other business in the country would shut its doors after continuing to lose that much money every year.

I'm a business consultant and that's insanely wrong. Why do you think capital raising exists? If companies were profitable they wouldn't seek capital and if they were bad businesses then they wouldn't receive any. The WNBA fits the profile of almost any high growth business. It's when growth slows down that profitability becomes more valued.

Begging for money on national TV, is an eye roller for me. They got a nice network agreement, but that was such a bad look. I wasn’t likely to watch WNBA games, now I’m less likely. And I certainly don’t get your assessment of it as a high growth business. The NBA pressured, and sold a product to the networks. Ultimately the networks will eat the losses, so good on them for that. It just isn’t sustainable, as it hasn’t historically.

[StevensTechU]

It’s interesting they are wearing shirt saying pay us what we are owed. Yet they lost $40 mill last year. Any other business in the country would shut its doors after continuing to lose that much money every year.

I'm a business consultant and that's insanely wrong. Why do you think capital raising exists? If companies were profitable they wouldn't seek capital and if they were bad businesses then they wouldn't receive any. The WNBA fits the profile of almost any high growth business. It's when growth slows down that profitability becomes more valued.

And I certainly don’t get your assessment of it as a high growth business. The NBA pressured, and sold a product to the networks.

What matters to owners is return on investment, not profitability. ROI can be dividends received, but with rare exceptions like commodities-based companies, the majority of ROI comes from appreciation of your investment. Think of just about any famously rich person, and they likely are as rich as they are because the thing they owned increased dramatically in value, not because they paid themselves a steady stream of cash every year from the margins of their business.

So back to the WNBA. While they're running at a loss, their revenue has reportedly gone from $60M in 2021 to $200M in 2024 (48% CAGR), and Sportico reported that between 2023 and 2024, every franchise saw its team value appreciate by over 100% and the average was 180%. When your league's teams collectively go up in value by a billion dollars, you don't care about the $40 million loss you took.

If the numbers above were describing a tech company, nobody would bat an eye. Because it's women's basketball, people all have an opinion. Also if it was a tech company, there would be an incentive plan in place to reward the employees for helping the value grow by giving them equity. That doesn't exist in the wnba, so instead if they want to get paid more for turning their team owners $10M investment into $450M over five years (as is reportedly the case with the NY Liberty), then so be it.

[Phalanx]

Any tech company who didn't make a profit for 30 years would be out of business or bought out. It's a bad comparison. The players and their advocates are asking for raises as a function of revenue, not equity. Nobody is doing any capital-raising to give anyone a raise - that's not a thing. The argument is that NBA players make 50% of revenues, and WNBA players make around 9.3% What isn't printed on t-shirts is that the NBA makes over 50 times more revenue than the WNBA and therefore costs associated with running the league are far more easily absorbed. The WNBA players will never get 50% of revenues while the league is losing money even at 9%. The new T.V. deal will help change the calculations, but owners are still definitely citing the lack of profit/ subsidizing they have been doing for three decades.

https://nypost.com/2024/10/18/sports/wn ... impatient/

[bdkipe]

Whenever people advocate for "equal pay” in Women’s sports, I just ask them to google highest-paid models of (insert year here).

I ask them to explan to me why the male models on the list are usually outside the top 20.

The answer usually involves more demand for beautiful women vs handsome men when it comes to selling products.

After they make their point about why female supermodels are paid more I tell them: “Great, you grasp the concept. It is the exact same thing in professional sports. Demand and appetite of the market create the pay scale. Has nothing to do with sexism."

[StevensTechU]

As fate would have it, I talked to co-owner of the Seattle Storm, Lisa Brummel, at a conference in Seattle today. Hilarious timing given this thread.

I'm not going to transcribe the entire conversation, but Brummel said the Storm ownership bought the org at a value of ~$10M and, as reported, the value in January 2025 was $325M based on their latest capital raise. Because teams are cash poor but growth is incredible, I floated the idea of establishing a trust for league players to hold an option pool pegged to the collective franchise values but she said the biggest barrier is simply that the players' union tends to want cash comp. I said there would be a runway of education on the topic but it could give them the dollars back to sink into further marketing. But for right now, in many ways, it's like college sports up until NIL - everyone in the league has the same salary cap, so the richest teams invest in facilities, training staff, brand experts, etc to compete for talent (the Storm just opened a $64M practice facility in Interbay). On the operating losses, she reminded me that all sports franchises basically strive to be break even*, whether you're the owner of a WNBA team or an NBA team. The ROI is entirely in the exit, as I mentioned in my earlier post.

So yea, confirmed everything from my earlier post in that the ownership groups are doing incredibly well despite the reported losses, and players are at the center of that value creation, so it's not illogical for them to be bargaining.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Brummel

[pezsez1]

All I can say is that I certainly hope the lowest-paid players on the Portland Fire make more than $65k/year. That's basically the income a single person needs to cover the most basic living expenses in this area.

Next year the players should just show up naked and paint "please pay us enough to buy clothes" on their bodies. Might actually get some thicker-headed dudes to give the sport a chance.

[GrantDuck]

As fate would have it, I talked to co-owner of the Seattle Storm, Lisa Brummel, at a conference in Seattle today. Hilarious timing given this thread.

I'm not going to transcribe the entire conversation, but Brummel said the Storm ownership bought the org at a value of ~$10M and, as reported, the value in January 2025 was $325M based on their latest capital raise. Because teams are cash poor but growth is incredible, I floated the idea of establishing a trust for league players to hold an option pool pegged to the collective franchise values but she said the biggest barrier is simply that the players' union tends to want cash comp. I said there would be a runway of education on the topic but it could give them the dollars back to sink into further marketing. But for right now, in many ways, it's like college sports up until NIL - everyone in the league has the same salary cap, so the richest teams invest in facilities, training staff, brand experts, etc to compete for talent (the Storm just opened a $64M practice facility in Interbay). On the operating losses, she reminded me that all sports franchises basically strive to be break even*, whether you're the owner of a WNBA team or an NBA team. The ROI is entirely in the exit, as I mentioned in my earlier post.

So yea, confirmed everything from my earlier post in that the ownership groups are doing incredibly well despite the reported losses, and players are at the center of that value creation, so it's not illogical for them to be bargaining.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Brummel

Cool info, thanks!